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Topic: 3 Things to Think About

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Subject: 3 Things to Think About
Date Posted: 5/12/2007 11:40 PM ET
Member Since: 1/3/2007
Posts: 236
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I am posting this here and not in CMT because I don't feel like getting slammed by all the atheists, agnostics, and ACLU members :) 

Three things to think about:

1. Cows

2. The Constitution

3. The Ten Commandments

 

COWS: Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that our Government can track a single cow born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall where she sleeps in the state of Washington? And, they tracked her calves right to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens wandering around our country. Maybe we should give each of them a cow.

 

THE CONSTITUTION: They keep talking about drafting a Constitution For Iraq. Why don 't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it has worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore.

 

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments posted in a courthouse is this: You cannot post "Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery," and "Thou Shall Not Lie" in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.
Date Posted: 6/20/2007 2:03 AM ET
Member Since: 5/19/2007
Posts: 19
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Not trying to "slam" you ma'am, but the real reason the 10 commandments cannot be posted in a courthouse is that in the United States, we have Separation of Church and State.  The 10 commandments on government property violates this law.  (Which is actually in the constitution, so someone must be using it still)



Last Edited on: 6/20/07 2:03 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 6/20/2007 11:55 AM ET
Member Since: 9/18/2005
Posts: 6,940
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Too funny and right on target Sarah! LOL

However, William, since the Founding Fathers built our country and wrote the Constitution based on the Ten Commandments and the principles found in the Bible, I'm sure there was a copy of the TC's somewhere in the government buildings until just recent years when someone decided to get stupid.  The TC's has nothing to do with the real meaning behind 'separation of church and state'.....the history of that statement has to do with being persecuted for your beliefs, not where they are posted.

Date Posted: 6/20/2007 12:20 PM ET
Member Since: 5/19/2007
Posts: 19
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That is not true.  Separation of church and state is not in any way unclear.  It is designed to keep any one religion from gaining too much power and persecuting the others.  The constitution was not based on Christianity but was designed to allow freedom of religion.  If someone tried to post passages from the satanic bible or the Koran in a school or courthouse, you would not be okay with that.  We are a very diverse nation and some people are offended by the suggestion that morality somehow derives from faith or religion.  This is not the case.  Secular people have just as much morality as religious folks because religion has nothing to do with people's morality.  Morality is based in society and currently accepted values.  Do not kill, do not steal, these are just natural elements of a functioning society.  I shudder to think what would happen if our great nation became run by a religious government (see Pakistan).  Everyone’s rights must be protected no matter what supernatural being they pray to or don’t pray to.  Remember, you are an atheist too when it comes to Zeus, Isis and Gaia. 

Date Posted: 6/21/2007 10:00 AM ET
Member Since: 4/6/2006
Posts: 236
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Sarah, I am one of the ACLU fans and a New Ager, but I thought your post was hilarious!  We should all be able to laugh at ourselves. 

Thanks, Margaret

BTW, most of the Founding Fathers were Unitarians and Free Masons, not at all anything like today's mainstream Christians.

Date Posted: 6/23/2007 7:55 PM ET
Member Since: 2/7/2007
Posts: 83
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I loved this and I think some people need to go back and read up on history look at some of the school books our founding fathers wrote and you will see that allmost started with prayers this was a country founding on christian morals. Our forfathers knew that people beleved in different things so they said they would never make a state church and give people there freedom of faith. But to say our forfathers saw a day when we would take God out of everthing is just wrong read it again and you will see God created all men and there fore we have the right to life liberty and the so on and so on.

Jennie

Date Posted: 6/25/2007 6:05 PM ET
Member Since: 5/19/2007
Posts: 19
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yellowsunflower28,

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?  Can you back up your claim?  You can not even spell, so I doubt you can(forefathers, believe).  The entire constitution is located here: 

www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution.html

Read it and tell us where it says that we are a Christian nation.  The 1st amendment clearly prohibits the government from having a national religion.  It is all written right there for all to read.  You cannot just make up what ever you please and hope someone is not going to call you on it.  I am calling you on it now.  I just finished reading it.  Why don't you do the same and then post your results.  Everyone has a right to freedom of religion not just Christians.  There are some aspects of life that should not include religion and the courthouse is one of those.  Reason and logic rule the courts, not superstition and dogma. 

 

P.S. "In God We Trust" was not our national moto until 1956. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Date Posted: 6/28/2007 7:17 PM ET
Member Since: 2/7/2007
Posts: 83
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Well you have me now I am a bad speller

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In no way does it say seperation of church and state but it says that the USA will not start a state church as they had in England.

http://www.christianparents.com/lrconst.htm

I am sure you will rip this apart but read it anyway

A bit of history of Jefferson

He attended religious services in the Capitol Building (and such services were also held in the Supreme Court building).

He favored using the word "God" in the national motto.

He granted land, buildings, and salaries for clergy teaching in Indian schools.

Supported the use of the Bible as reading materials in such schools.

He personally prayed at public events.

Exempted churches from taxation.

In 1801, he wrote that "the Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which [the clergy] have enveloped it, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and freest expansion of the human mind."

Now all that said I dont think any of them would try in any way to force anyone to be a christian and that is why we dont have a state church. But to overlook our christian roots is for yourself not fact if you dont want to be a christian dont. If you dont like the 10 commandments dont read them. But for christians like me and many more the world over we will.

Jennie AKA a bad speller

 

 

 

Date Posted: 6/30/2007 9:25 PM ET
Member Since: 11/8/2006
Posts: 871
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Separation of church(human institution) and state does not necessarily mean a separation of state from God (Bible basis moral authority and teaching).  Rejecting the institution does not rationally require rejection of successful age old moral precepts regardless of the source.

For example, Buddhist precepts are understood not as commandments laid down by divine authority but injunctions derived from rational principles intended to promote human well-being.

Yellowsunflower28, I am sure you know what you're talking about, this issue does however lead to strong views from both sides.

 



Last Edited on: 6/30/07 9:34 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/5/2007 3:26 PM ET
Member Since: 7/6/2006
Posts: 184
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It is no problem to see THE 10 COMMANDMENTS in a court house - if you are of the JudeoChristian faiths.  But not everyone IS.

To see where the problem lies - how would you like it if

- The Charge of the Goddess and the Wiccan Rede were posted in the court house or... maybe...something by Aliester Crowley signed "The Beast 666."

You'd probably have a problem with that, right?

Or what if - instead of a picture of Jesus behind the Judge, with a statement to obey these laws - How would you like to have a picture of Thoth or Anubis?

Seriously - Christians often seem to love to talk about their persecution and I've no doubt it happens to ANYONE religious - but at least you don't have to hide your faith for fear someone will burn your house down. 

The problem with the 10 commandments - as I recall them - is that several of them  - 5 I think - have to do with keeping religious law - such as having no gods before me, remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, that sort of thing.  Thou shall not kill, steal, commit adultry, covet thy neighbor's property - all those - I think most ethical religions agree on, but those are usually coded into law anyway.

Date Posted: 7/5/2007 3:27 PM ET
Member Since: 7/6/2006
Posts: 184
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My point is - the need to separate church and state actually protect Christians as well as everyone else.

And I totally agree with you on the point about the Iraqi constitution.  What a farce that was. 

I cringed.  That govt. should have been entirely secular.  We prostituted ourselves there, I think.



Last Edited on: 7/5/07 3:33 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/6/2007 10:19 AM ET
Member Since: 2/7/2007
Posts: 83
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You are right I would hate it. But here is something for you to think about to. How would you feel if we made you listen to it in your home. Or say that in school you would have to put on a test what you think is a lie or flunk or have teachers telling you it is ok to kill babies no matter your faith. You would tell me freedom of speach as far as the TV goes right if you dont like it turn it off. We do but I still cant watch the news because of the  commericials. What about school where in the youngest grades it is the world in billions of years old and my child is wrong for not saying that is not or older grades where big bang is a fact. In the school that we live by they teach them the comdon on the banana in the 6th grade. Well I did take them out of school I am just a bad speller other than that I do ok lol. I did these things for my faith well not at first but now I do. As much as I hate it I think people have the right to stand on the corner and yell pray to this god or that god so that I have the right to say Jesus is the only way to heaven. But as far as the TC that is a part of our roots in this country that is why they are there. I do think we are blessed in this country I dont have to be fearfull to go to church I can take my kids out of school but it is getting harder and harder and that is what we have to watch out for.

Jennie

Date Posted: 7/6/2007 11:44 AM ET
Member Since: 11/28/2006
Posts: 2,087
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Jennie,

You listed some historical facts and some ideas about Jefferson that point to him as a religious man.  The truth is, for every quote or fact that anyone can list about Jefferson, which points to him as a Bible believer, one can give an equal contradictory quote.  Below are a few of these.  Jefferson was actually a Deist, which means he believed in a sort of creator.  Deism is a natural religion and not a revealed religion.  Deism is belief in God based on the application of reason through nature.

Jefferson believed in a Creator, but he had a very scientific mind.  He rejected the superstitions/mysticism of Christianity and even rewrote the Gospels (look up The Jefferson Bible). 

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I must agree with Kristi about posting the 10 Commandments in courthouses.  Not everyone in this country is Christian and I'm sure that Christians would be offended if credes from other religions were posted.  And also Sarah - I'm a godless Liberal but I thought your post about cows, Constitution and 10 Cs was pretty funny!

 

 

Date Posted: 7/6/2007 10:37 PM ET
Member Since: 4/14/2006
Posts: 5,792
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I agree Romanshopper and I also agree with the post about Morals. I am not a christian and alot of christians assume that I have no morals while I find that I have better morals than most Christians that I know.

Date Posted: 7/7/2007 7:06 PM ET
Member Since: 5/19/2007
Posts: 19
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Yellowsunflower28, I hope you have someone else teach your kids grammar and punctuation as well, because yours sucks.  It is not just your spelling. 

 

As for what is taught in school, it is current scientific theory.  It has pretty much been proven by multiple methods of dating materials that the earth IS billions of years old.  Are you a scientist?  How can you presume to say that geologists, biologists and other scientists are wrong?  You cannot just change things around to fit your beliefs and you certainly cannot require others to either.  You are forcing your children into ignorance.  Your beliefs cannot hold up against science so why would they be taught in a classroom?

 

I would not want religion taught in a science classroom.  That belongs in church not school.    

 

On the morals note, I agree that religion and morality are not connected.  Most people have pretty standard morals because this comes from society, not religion.  I am gladly free of religion, fear and guilt but I do not kill, steal, rape, molest, lie, cheat or commit adultery.  I am also not without compassion and I love my family and my girlfriend.  The idea that there are no morals without religion is utterly ridiculous.   

Date Posted: 7/8/2007 1:39 PM ET
Member Since: 6/15/2007
Posts: 8,074
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I just want to say that I am a Christian and I absolutely believe in the separation of church and state, for many of the reasons stated.  I will teach my children my faith at home and in the church of our choice.  If I allow a Christian teacher to teach them her views, how could I complain if the next teacher was Wiccan or Muslem?  If I wanted to live in a country that was run by religion I guess I could move to Iran!  Haha

Also, good for you Jennie for homeschooling your kids!  I am a former kindergarten teacher who fully supports homeschooling and a Christian curriculum.  How old are your kids?

Date Posted: 7/10/2007 5:13 PM ET
Member Since: 9/18/2005
Posts: 6,940
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William wrote:  I am gladly free of religion, fear and guilt

You are also completely free of etiquette, tact, compassion and kindness.  Quit being so rude to Jennie simply because of her grammar and spelling errors.  Her point is still coming across clearly and that is all that matters.   Leave her alone!!!!!   If you can't say nice things and be able to have a nice discussion in these forums you need to stop coming in here.  Be able to conduct yourself with some manners please.   

Date Posted: 7/12/2007 3:26 PM ET
Member Since: 5/19/2007
Posts: 19
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You cannot try to make intelligent points and teach children if you cannot even master the English language.  It discredits your points from the beginning.  If you cannot swim in the kiddy pool, then you should stay out of the deep end for sure.

Her point that religion (the earth is 6000 years old) should be taught in place of science (the earth is billions of years old) was a clear sign of this.  People need to be highly qualified to teach children.

Date Posted: 7/13/2007 4:45 PM ET
Member Since: 9/18/2005
Posts: 6,940
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So would you say that since I'm not an 'educated' person, I should not be homeschooling my children?  Who made you the judge?  My DH is a VERY educated person (two degrees from a top engineering school), but has NO mastery of the English language or grammar and can't spell or word sentences worth a hoot.  So are you saying HE is unqualified to teach our children, simply based on grammar?????  That is absolutely ridiculous!  You need to stop being such a judgemental person and leave others alone. 

BTW, I too believe the way she does about the age of the earth.  Does that make me stupid as well? 

You're entitled to your OPINION, and I'm entitled to mine.  Please don't put people down and dog them for their beliefs...that's just not being courteous and is NOT what these forums are about.

Date Posted: 7/15/2007 11:51 AM ET
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 30,790
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Thanks Sarah - for posting something I found amusing.   Seems as if no subject can be talked about in ANY of the forums that someone is not going to read, pick out what they disagree with, and come tell us all (and put us down) about it.   To me that is sad, but oh yeah. it's allowed because we have freedom of speech.

As for what is taught in school, it is current scientific theory.   THEORY is the key word here I believe!  My DIL who has a doctorate degree in chemistry says "therory" means it hasn't been proved YET!   Oh yeah - she is a scientiest who also believes in God.   I do believe there are more than a few who do!!  

Date Posted: 7/15/2007 9:58 PM ET
Member Since: 7/6/2006
Posts: 184
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Oh well, your daughter is only partially right.

Theory has several different definitions.    Think:  Theory of Gravity.

Here's the definitions. The'theory' in 'Theory of evolution' is using the 1st definition, NOT the last.

  1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
  2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
  3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
  4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
  5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
  6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

I have a degree in science, and another in art.  I homeschool.  I teach evolution.  Homeschoolers don't need regulation, they are ALL doing fine on their own;  test scores and college completion studies show it.  That's another argument though.

I am glad that as a pagan, I can homeschool and teach my child OUR ways, and that my Christian friends can do the same.



Last Edited on: 7/15/07 10:01 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/16/2007 7:53 PM ET
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 30,790
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I read and reread those difinitions.   I still didn't see anywhere where it said a theroy was anyting except an explanation, accepted principlas, experience, judgement       I never did see where a theory was proven FACT. 

Date Posted: 7/17/2007 2:22 PM ET
Member Since: 6/20/2007
Posts: 140
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Wow this is really amazing a little inoccent joke started this thread and turned into a hayday!!! Pretty crazy..  I personally thought the joke was very funny and didn't take any offense to it at all.  Can't we just have fun sometimes without being ready to jump all over each other?

 

Thanks for the laugh. I really enjoyed the joke that started this all.

 

God Bless you all,

 

Date Posted: 7/20/2007 12:13 AM ET
Member Since: 7/6/2006
Posts: 184
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  1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Here is a great article on this topic, from Scientific American. 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF

This is addressed specifically - it is #1 on that first page, at the link above.

Date Posted: 7/30/2007 9:22 PM ET
Member Since: 2/23/2006
Posts: 665
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