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Topic: Is the burden on ME to confirm that the ISBN matches the book I'm getting?

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Subject: Is the burden on ME to confirm that the ISBN matches the book I'm getting?
Date Posted: 7/13/2009 2:34 PM ET
Member Since: 6/10/2009
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Oy vey. This is a problem that I just didn't see coming.

I ordered a large print edition of a book. PBS lists it clearly as LARGE PRINT so I figure, anyone I order it from is going to know that I'm expecting the LARGE PRINT version, right? Wrong, apparently.

I've been ordering some large print books for a friend, and two came today. No, wait. Two regular print books came today. When I marked them as "RWAP," one of the senders wrote a somewhat huffy PM saying that I should have checked the ISBN and known it wasn't really a large print book.

Excuse me? It says it's LARGE PRINT right in the book title/description. Didn't the sender even think to ask me before they sent it out if this is what I wanted? What person orders a book that says "LARGE PRINT" if they don't want LARGE PRINT?

Date Posted: 7/13/2009 2:38 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
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No, the other person needed to do that when she posted. I cut the "posting a book" rules out below. See the last one. You should PM her back and let her know the proper procedure for posting a book when the listing says "Large Print".  And, ask for your credits back.

Having said that, it doesn't hurt to double check it yourself before you request the book. You can use Amazon, and there is probably other sites out there that would let you see if the ISBNs are being reused. if they are, you can turn on a RC that asks the member to double check that the book is Large Print before they send it.

 

 

  • Confirm that your book matches the information in the Book Listing Preview 

    • You will see the text below the Book Listing Preview:

      This is how your book listing will appear in the PBS library. 

      Do the Title, Author, ISBN and Book Type match your book EXACTLY?

      Please note: book cover image shown does NOT need to match your book.

    • If all of the information (ISBN, title, author, booktype) on the Book Listing Preview matches your book EXACTLY click  .   Do not click Refresh on your browser while the button reads "Processing..."  Doing this may cause the book to be Posted twice.

  • If your book does NOT match the information in the Book Listing Preview:

    • If it is a minor difference, such as a misspelled title or the wrong author first name, you can post the book and submit corrections afterward using the Edit Book Data link.
    • If the booktype is different (if your book is a paperback, and the Preview shows hardcover, for example):
      • You will need to post the book without an ISBN
    • If the book title says "(Large Print)" and your book is regular-size font:
      • You will need to post the book without an ISBN

     



  • Last Edited on: 7/13/09 2:40 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 2:39 PM ET
    Member Since: 6/10/2009
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    Thank you for such a quick response. I shall do that.
    Kate -
    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 2:40 PM ET
    Member Since: 8/28/2008
    Posts: 534
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    It was the sender's responsibility to check the posting. From the help docs:

    If your book does NOT match the information in the Book Listing Preview:

    • If it is a minor difference, such as a misspelled title or the wrong author first name, you can post the book and submit corrections afterward using the Edit Book Data link.
    • If the booktype is different (if your book is a paperback, and the Preview shows hardcover, for example):
      • You will need to post the book without an ISBN
    • If the book title says "(Large Print)" and your book is regular-size font:
      • You will need to post the book without an ISBN

    You can send him/her that quote and this link where it's found http://www.paperbackswap.com/help/help_item.php?id=25

    ETA Oops, someone beat me to it! :)



    Last Edited on: 7/13/09 2:40 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 2:43 PM ET
    Member Since: 6/15/2009
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    never mind... someone beat me to responding. :)



    Last Edited on: 7/13/09 2:44 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 2:45 PM ET
    Member Since: 6/10/2009
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    Thank you thank you!

    I have been trying to double check on the books, and have also sent out PMs to members after I order a book, confirming that it is indeed Large Print. That'll be my standard procedure from now on. I still am flabbergasted that someone can send off a book that is clearly defined as LARGE PRINT in the book description title and not think to ask me first if this is okay. Weird!

    Oh, and I will be asking for my credit back. The normal print versions are no good for my purposes. These books are for someone who normally uses a "text enlargement machine" to read books, so she has many of the books I'm ordering in "normal print" already, but I felt that if ever the power went out for a while, or her special machine for reading needed repairs, that she'd like to have some good old fashioned large print books on hand.

    Last Edited on: 7/13/09 2:47 PM ET - Total times edited: 1

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 4:46 PM ET
    Member Since: 8/23/2007
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    You could try using an RC just for when you order books for your friend. Something like "I am ordering this for a friend who requires a Large Print book.  Please double check that your book is large print".  Only turn it on when requesting those books otherwise you might get turned down for other books for yourself. The downside to this is that you can't autorequest any WL books for your friend.

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 5:52 PM ET
    Member Since: 6/10/2009
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    Thank you for the RC suggestion! So far I think I've sent everyone a PM asking them to confirm that the book is large print. From now on I think the RC system—that's brilliant!

    I still am a little gobsmacked that someone can post a book which is listed as LARGE PRINT (it says LARGE PRINT in the book title/description) and yet act all huffy and annoyed when I actually expect it to be large print! I can understand them not knowing that the book is listed that way if it weren't in, you know, PART OF THE BOOK TITLE but since it is, I'd think it's a bit hard to miss.

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 5:59 PM ET
    Member Since: 8/30/2007
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    I still am a little gobsmacked that someone can post a book which is listed as LARGE PRINT (it says LARGE PRINT in the book title/description) and yet act all huffy and annoyed when I actually expect it to be large print!

    Oh, honey. You wouldn't believe the things people get huffy and annoyed about here--especially when they're the ones who made the mistake in the first place. LOL.

    Hope you're having a good time here otherwise, though! :-)

     

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 6:04 PM ET
    Member Since: 6/10/2009
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    Thank you, and I AM having a great time! LOL

    I'm beginning to wonder if some of these people do not know what "Large Print" means. One of the senders asked, "Can the book be read?" I'm thinking, Uh, do they know what "Large Print" is for? There's a reason people specifically request Large Print!

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 6:48 PM ET
    Member Since: 10/23/2005
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    I'm beginning to wonder if some of these people do not know what "Large Print" means.

    I think they are the same people who dont know what Handicapped Parking means. In the cases of posting Large Print books in correctly, I think the policy should be a double refund of the credit and a fine. It is thoughtless and mean. 

    When someone posts a book that the data-base has as Large Print this is the message that pops up:

    This book is listed in the database as Large Print (16-point font size). If your book is NOT Large Print, you cannot use this listing to post your book.

    Seems pretty hard to miss, considering it is in a Red Box with the font size clearly spelled out.

    I can not begin to tell you how many times this has been discussed, and yet it still happens. As a Tour Guide I get questions about it alot. PBS has talked about it in the NewsWire, seeing-impaired people have posted thread about it, and yet it still happens way too often. I am usually very forgiving when it comes to members making "mistakes", but to tease someone with a package containing a book that is virtually useless to them it downright immoral. 

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 7:35 PM ET
    Member Since: 8/20/2008
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    I understand how you are feeling skuzzycat. I once ordered 2 children's books from here that clearly said Big Book next to the Titles. I even went so far as to check the ISBN on Amazon just to make sure that I was actually lucky enough to find a big book on here. Once I saw that the ISBN's were Big Books I ordered the books. BOTH of the books arrived and BOTH were normal books. Luckily both of the senders were kind enough to admit to and fix their mistakes. After looking closely at the books I realized that they likely posted the big book version ISBN because it was listed right along side the real ISBN in the book!!! Talk about confusing. I really hope that you get it all figured out. :0)

    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 10:01 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
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    When someone posts a book that the data-base has as Large Print this is the message that pops up:

    This book is listed in the database as Large Print (16-point font size). If your book is NOT Large Print, you cannot use this listing to post your book. If your book is NOT Large Print, Click here for more information.

    Seems pretty hard to miss, considering it is in a Red Box with the font size clearly spelled out.

    Well, I have a lot of sympathy for people who post by ISBN and get caught by this. I bet almost nobody knows or can gauge 16 point type, or has a pica gauge handy to measure it, or even has a clue what that means.

    Anyway, this message comes up when the book is clicked as "Large Print" in the book data, not just if the book has "Large Print" in the title. I don't know what books are under discussion here, but it is extremely possible that this message didn't pop up when the books were posted.



    Last Edited on: 7/13/09 10:01 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 7/13/2009 11:45 PM ET
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    Cheryl G, thanks for the insights. I didn't know that this problem has been so long-standing. How frustrating!

    Cheryl G wrote: I am usually very forgiving when it comes to members making "mistakes", but to tease someone with a package containing a book that is virtually useless to them it downright immoral.

    I am not sure why this one member asked "Can you read the book?" I'm guessing it's because they had no idea what "Large Print" means, but I don't know for sure. I am dumbfounded that anyone can reach adulthood (and be a book enthusiast) while still remaining completely oblivious to what "Large Print" means, but if that is so, I guess that's a lesson that member will have to learn at the cost of one credit. (Which of course no one has refunded me yet.) Even if the member didn't know what "Large Print" meant, you'd think that some small portion of curiosity would cause the member to wonder, "Why is my book listed as "large print" and what does that mean exactly?" and find out more. Especially since the PBS guidelines do talk about "regular-sized font" vs. "Large Print" so that should have been some sort of hint right there.

    Sara P wrote: " I don't know what books are under discussion here, but it is extremely possible that this message didn't pop up when the books were posted.""

    When I was searching for the books in the database, I purposely selected books that had "Large Print" in the title, (For instance, "Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain (Large Print)" though this was not a book I actually got.) This way, I thought, there's no WAY that anyone can say that they "didn't know" and there would be no ambiguity. All correspondence about the book includes that title, with the big "(Large Print)" in it. I mentioned this in both the PMs I sent out to the members, reminding them that the PM they got about the book listed the whole title, including the "Large Print" part, so how could they not know that we're talking about a Large Print book here? It's so frustrating.

    I suppose someone could just miss it—miss it when they were listing the book, miss it when they were packaging up the book to be sent out, then miss it when it is pointed out to them (which I have done) but that is a sure lot of missing going on.

    Last Edited on: 7/13/09 11:51 PM ET - Total times edited: 3

    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 12:01 AM ET
    Member Since: 7/19/2008
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    Many books that are large print are wish listed.  While the regular versions aren't.  I really hope that anyone on PBS isn't nasty enough to be doing this on purpose.  And if they are, I hope they are losing credits. 

    When I heard that ebooks had large print fonts on new releases, what I had thought of a luxury suddenly made so much sense.  It is often so hard to find large print books.

    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 1:01 AM ET
    Member Since: 1/20/2009
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    As someone with serious vision problems, who has lots of trouble reading regular font but usually even more trouble trying to find affordable large print books (even getting any on here often seems way too unlikely with how few are posted, so I usually end up getting the regular books and then using a magnifier, unless one is readily available or has a reasonably short WL that I can imagine getting to the top of earlier than I would just buy the book), I definitely think this particular problem is simply unacceptable. I think a lot of people just don't care, or don't think there's a big enough difference to worry about, and I'm sure some people are doing it on purpose to get a credit. But, of course, all the people in question are fully-sighted, and have no idea what it's like to have the problems people like me do. As of when I was about 15, I have just a fraction of the seeing ability that is considered perfect in one eye, and no vision in the other. I can't drive, get horrible headaches from eyestrain, and will have difficulties the rest of my life because of it. So, I agree, there should be an extra penalty for incorrectly posting and sending a large print book, just as you can get a ticket for parking in a handicapped space. It isn't the same as just sending a wrong book, like sending a paperback instead of a hardcover. In this instance, the visually disabled are being taken advantange of and being sent books that they literally can't use, or can't use without extra work and effort involved. Quite frankly, I do like to be able to read books without magnifying them sometimes, and I like having books that I can read when I don't have access to a magnifier (while traveling for instance).

    Pooey on foolish and selfish people.

    It's really awesome what you're trying to do for your friend though. I wish I had a friend that was so thoughtful and considerate. Even my own family gets me regular print books I have to magnify to read, rather than paying the extra to get the large print edition. But, I think they're mostly in denial about how bad the problem is.

    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 1:05 AM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
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    I was responding to Cheryl. She mentioned the message that you see when you POST a large print book. I was just pointing out the thing that triggers this message to appear is NOT the words "Large Print" in the title. A book has a TYPE of "Large Print" when that checkbox is clicked (turned on) in the Book Data.

    When you are posting a book by ISBN, there is no special large print message unless the book has a TYPE of "large print" in the Book Data, regardless of what it says in the book title.

    So, I don't know what books you ordered, but it is possible that the "Large Print" checkbox is not turned on for them, which means that the poster of the books did not get a special message to check if the books were actually large print, at the time they posted.

    That doesn't excuse the poster from knowing the rules, I'm just saying, it could be easy to miss. Ultimately, the person posting the books is responsible for knowing the rules and checking that their books are posting correctly.



    Last Edited on: 7/14/09 1:10 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 1:52 AM ET
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    Tiffany K wrote: In this instance, the visually disabled are being taken advantange of and being sent books that they literally can't use, or can't use without extra work and effort involved. Quite frankly, I do like to be able to read books without magnifying them sometimes, and I like having books that I can read when I don't have access to a magnifier (while traveling for instance).

    YES YES YES, this is exactly why I'm searching out books for her. Your vision problem sounds pretty severe, and my heart goes out to you! My friend has weird nerve damage to her eyes where she can see but everything is like she's looking through a "dirty window" she says. Like you, she cannot drive. She has ALWAYS been a huge reader, so it was a terrible blow to her when she lost her vision as a young adult. At first all she could do is listen to books on tape and the occasional large print. Finally she was able to get a special (very expensive) machine that is like a closed-circuit TV, where she places the book under a screen and it enlarges the text for her on a little TV monitor like thing. This machine is her lifeline, but if she's traveling, it's too large to carry with her; if the power is out, it won't work; and obviously she doesn't have access to it when it's in for repairs. She has mislaid all her old large print books, so I thought I'd get her some newer ones for the times when she can't use her special machine.

    New large print books are so expensive (about $25 compared to a regular books $7 or so?), and when I saw that PBS had large print, I thought, "This is FANTASTIC!" Fortunately for my friend, she doesn't mind Harlequin romances, so I've been picking up a lot of Large Print Harlequins, and these don't seem to be a problem because they are all hardbacks (where as we all know, most 'regular' Harlequins are paperback) and I think they are handled by a different publisher so the ISBN is different. So far no one has sent me a "regular" Harlequin by mistake. But my friend has tastes beyond Harlequins, so I have been trying to find other books for her too.

    Emily E wrote: When I heard that ebooks had large print fonts on new releases, what I had thought of a luxury suddenly made so much sense. It is often so hard to find large print books.

    I'm hoping that the Kindle or some other e-Reader is helping those who are visually impaired. My friend may end up getting one of those eventually, but it has its own problems, I feel. It also is dependent on electricity at some point, and also would be more fragile than a book. Though I think eBooks and eBook readers are the wave of the future, definitely.

    Sara P wrote: So, I don't know what books you ordered, but it is possible that the "Large Print" checkbox is not turned on for them, which means that the poster of the books did not get a special message to check if the books were actually large print, at the time they posted.

    I don't know how it worked for them, but I think that at some point they would see that the title of the book said, "Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain (Large Print)." When they got the notice that I had ordered the book, the book title comes up as "Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain (Large Print)" so at some point during the whole transaction, some alarm bells should have gone through their heads, saying, "Wait a minute, is my book Large Print"? Just like you're supposed to thumb through the book before you post it, to make sure it meets PBS's guidelines (no water damage, no underlining of text) so you should confirm that it's large print if the title description is coming up like that. So I don't see why it would be that easy to miss.

    (Sorry I'm sounding testy here. I can agree that at some point it might have been confusing, but I don't understand why a title with (Large Print) in it could continually be missed, unless someone simply wasn't attempting to pay attention.)

    Last Edited on: 7/14/09 1:53 AM ET - Total times edited: 1

    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 10:36 AM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
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    so at some point during the whole transaction, some alarm bells should have gone through their heads, saying, "Wait a minute, is my book Large Print"?

    Yes, I agree with you, the poster of the wrong books is at fault here. I still think that it is an easy thing to miss. BECAUSE, when you post a book, you are ONLY asked to match the four items (Title, Author, ISBN, and Binding) and, then when the pop-up comes up, you are asked a few questions about book condition. When you post by ISBN, you are not asked about the book being large print, even if it says (Large Print) in the title (UNLESS the book is marked as Large Print in the Book Data).  Plus, the titles of books often have extra stuff appended in parenthesis that are not part of the actual book title and that you can safely ignore when you are posting books (like the series and book number).

    I personally believe that perhaps PBS can add to the pop-up or to the Post Screen so that people know that they need to check "Large Print" too, if it is in the title.

    Because the only way to find out that they have to do that right now, is buried deep in the rules.

    I completely understand why people mis-post their books, when they happen to have the same ISBN.

    Plus, just something to think about .... if the Large Print has the same ISBN as the regular book, then someone could edit the Book Data to change the category of the book to or from Large Print. People are not prevented from doing this, like they are with the Book Binding. So, I imgine that it is possible for a book that was posted correctly to have the listing changed later to "Large Print", even if all the books with that ISBN are not Large Print.   Now, maybe the Book Editors somehow prevent this from happening, but I don't know that that's true.

    I also just wanted to add, lots of people post books a bunch at a time. I often have a stack of 20 or 30 boooks to post in one sitting. I can see how it is easy to miss the "Large Print" in the title while you are posting. I know to double-check because I have read the rules a bunch of times, but PBS could make it easier for people to know this, as well. JMO.



    Last Edited on: 7/14/09 10:56 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Subject: Berkley "Large-Type" Editions
    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 11:00 AM ET
    Member Since: 1/10/2009
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    An additional source of confusion is a series of mmpbs Berkley Medallion published in the mid-seventies that say "Berkley LARGE-TYPE Edition" in a cartouche to the top of the cover. To me, the type used is slightly larger than that used in most other paperbacks, but nowhere near as large as what we'd call large print. (I don't know where my type-measuring gadget has gone lately.) I've been looking in the PBS database for real large-print editions by some of my mother's favorite authors, and these Berkley things keep coming up. I had an extra copy of one and tried to post it last night, by ISBN, which brought up the pop-up box mentioned above by Cheryl G and Sara, so I took the book off again until I can check the type size. If I do get it posted, I'll be sure to PM any requestor, to make sure they know what they're getting.
    Date Posted: 7/14/2009 4:41 PM ET
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    Sara P wrote: I also just wanted to add, lots of people post books a bunch at a time. I often have a stack of 20 or 30 boooks to post in one sitting. I can see how it is easy to miss the "Large Print" in the title while you are posting. I know to double-check because I have read the rules a bunch of times, but PBS could make it easier for people to know this, as well.

    I can see a large print slipping through the cracks during the posting process, but I find it harder to accept that no one wondered how come the book had "Large Print" tacked onto it when they got the notice telling them that it had been ordered. But I do see what you're saying.

    Out of curiosity, I entered the ISBNs for both these books that were mis-listed to see what PBS "thought" they were. I even went so far as to "fake post" one of the books for about 30 seconds. BOTH books came up as regular print (in other words, were correctly listed). They have separate ISBNs from the Large Print editions. So all the snarky admonishing from the one member about how I should have "checked the ISBN" would have come to naught, since the book was posted with the Large Print ISBN, and that was what I wanted, and had ordered, and that's where the book(s) were listed. So I don't know what went wrong with these books, but I do think that it was a bit clueless for those members to send out books which had "Large Print" in the title when they weren't remotely large print (not even "a little larger than average" print).

    Margaret H wrote: To me, the type used is slightly larger than that used in most other paperbacks, but nowhere near as large as what we'd call large print. (I don't know where my type-measuring gadget has gone lately.)

    Yes, I know what you're saying—Harlequin has Larger print books, which are the aforementioned "a little larger than average" but nowhere NEAR large print. I could understand someone posting a "Larger Print" book and thinking that this was "Large Print" (and I would have been far more forgiving if such an error were made) but I do not understand why someone would assume that an average-sized font could be "Large Print."

    Date Posted: 7/16/2009 12:23 PM ET
    Member Since: 8/26/2008
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    Here's one.

    I just listed Colleen Coble's Lonestar Secrets yet the ISBN listing on PBS does not show it to be Large Print.  It IS a large print book.  Before posting, I checked the web.

    All returns for the ISBN indicate that this ISBN was only used for the LP version of this book and was published solely by Doubleday Large Print Home Edition Library.

    I did edit the book data to indicate this is a LP book, however, technically my book does not meet the type size for posting it.

    I did list it based on my findings that it should be listed as LP in the PBS database (and once my corrections are approved, it will be).

    However, let's say (since there are 5 people on a WL for this) that I send it and the person receiving it did not want LP, is it my fault because it did not match the type size when Iisted?  Even though it should have been listed as LP? 

    To prevent this, I will PM whoever requests and let them know it is LP and should have been indicated as such in the listing before sending.

    Again, I did post under this ISBN because it SHOULD be listed as LP for that ISBN and the corrections have been submitted to change that.

    Date Posted: 7/16/2009 12:39 PM ET
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    Barbara - no where does it say that type size must match.  It DOES say that you cannot send a standard print book when the site says Large Print, but that does mean the reverse is also the case.

    PMing is a kind guesture because some people just can't stand reading Large Print, but you are within posting guidelines to post and send it under that ISBN.

    Date Posted: 7/16/2009 12:53 PM ET
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    You are correct.  I was reading "BOOK TYPE" and only seeing type.  I know book type is HC, PB, etc. 

     

    Thanks!

    My mother prefers LP and gets them shipped to her.

    Date Posted: 7/16/2009 3:34 PM ET
    Member Since: 6/10/2009
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    I have an update of sorts. Or a non-update. One of the people who sent out the non-LP book has refunded my credit. No fuss, no muss. It's a perfectly good book and it's a shame that they won't get to keep their credit, but the thing is--I never would have ordered that book in the first place if it had been regular print. I had that credit earmarked for a large print book.

    The other person hasn't been as cooperative. She is basically ignoring me. I'm going to give her more time to respond, but how long should I give her? I have linked to and quoted the rules, and I've told her that by all rights (and according to PBS's rules) I am entitled to my credit back. I already know that she is unhappy about that, because she complained the book was a big heavy hardback and it cost a lot to ship. But again, I would have never wasted my credit on that book had it been regular print. It's no use to my friend as it is.

    I don't know how PBS handles these things (and I realize that it's "just one credit" and not the end of the world) but in the RWAP correspondence I had with this one person (this is the person whose first reaction was to tell me to "get a life" and check the ISBNs myself, it wasn't her responsibility) it's pretty clear that she knows that she didn't send out the Large Print, and she knows that I was expecting the Large Print, and yet (at least so far as I know) she appears to be unwilling to cough up the credit anyway.

    So this isn't a matter of "he said she said" where one person is claiming the book is damaged and the other person is saying no it isn't--no one is denying that the book isn't large print. Will it go harder on this member for so willingly ignoring the rules? (And again, this is a person whose initial response was to say, "Get a life." LOL.)



    Last Edited on: 7/16/09 3:35 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
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