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Topic: Can I do this?

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Subject: Can I do this?
Date Posted: 10/28/2014 7:26 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2010
Posts: 6
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I am getting very few requests for my books. But I have quite a few credits. Can I remove my available books and just use my credits as needed? Or do I have to have available swaps to keep a current account? Thanks for any help. I looked in the rules but couldn't find this issue addressed.
 



Last Edited on: 10/28/14 7:34 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 10/28/2014 7:59 PM ET
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 30,800
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Yes you can.

Date Posted: 10/28/2014 8:48 PM ET
Member Since: 4/6/2007
Posts: 1,412
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Last Edited on: 7/26/15 9:21 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 10/28/2014 8:52 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I don't keep a bookshelf. I used to do the vacation hold thing. But now I just donate most of my print books and post WL books as I need them.  You don't have to feel guilty about it either.  It's ok not to want to mail out books until you use credits and it's OK to wait to use the credits for books you really want.

Date Posted: 10/28/2014 9:05 PM ET
Member Since: 7/19/2008
Posts: 15,476
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The rules state that you are required to be in good faith to mail books that are ordered from you. But you do not have to post books. Your choice what you want to offer. 

I will put books on my Reminder List to see how many other copies are offered. Then donate books with high numbers. 

Date Posted: 11/1/2014 6:53 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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A member should not remove the 10 books they posted to earn the start up credits. Those they received a benefit in return for offering them to trade. Other than that, a member does not need to maintain a bookshelf. If you think you will want to earn more credits in the future, utilizing Vacation Hold is a much better option than removing books.

Date Posted: 11/2/2014 7:26 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I would think if her 1st 10 books have been sitting there unrequested since 2010, that it's safe to remove them if she's mailed other books out. 

Date Posted: 12/2/2014 5:23 PM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2011
Posts: 100
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About once a year, I remove my bookshelf, and donate my books to my library book sale. I do check to see if my books have a short wishlist, if they do I'll usually keep them. Since I'm always adding books, it's not long before I have a nice pile again.

Date Posted: 1/2/2015 2:36 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2009
Posts: 4,581
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I removed my first 10 books after about three months of them not going anywhere and looking at the reminder list for them when I first started.  I didn't get punished, though I'd had several wl books that I had added and swaped over that period too.  My first 10 books consisted of older Sue Grafton, and Patricia Cornwell, they didn't move at all those first three months.  I offered them in a choose your own deal in the BBZ and when they didn't get taken after 2 weeks I donated them.  There was no repercussion for this but I had a few other books on my shelf at the time.

I've seen people who have no books posted and opt to purchase credits instead. 


 

Date Posted: 1/2/2015 4:05 AM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,958
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There is NO rule that you cannot remove your first 10 books from the site.

PBS offers 2 free credits to entice people to test out the system when they join, to "prove it works" so to speak, and technically, everybody on the site has received (at least) 2 more credits than the amount of books that they have ever mailed (and probably used them too). PBS used to offer 3 free credits, if I recall properly, so there are plenty of members who have utilized 3 more credits than they have earned.

Yes, we would like new members to stay and use the site and mail out their books ... but there is no rule that they have to do so after using their 2 credits.

Date Posted: 1/2/2015 5:20 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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There is NO rule that you cannot remove your first 10 books from the site.

Yes, we would like new members to stay and use the site and mail out their books ... but there is no rule that they have to do so after using their 2 credits.

The Terms of Use actually prohibits it. I am curious to your use of the word "we", are you quoting something the site has said? Because it is not in agreement from what I have seen them say. When I have discussed it with them in the past, they didn't have anything in place to catch people posting, using the credits, then delisting their books and leaving unless members were cancelling a bunch of requests for the books. They expect people to be honest and honor the TofU they agreed to when signing up for the site.

Listing or Posting
By listing or posting items for selection by the exchange community, you aver that you are the sole owner of the items and have the unrestricted right to transfer ownership thereof. By posting or listing an item for exchange with the Site, you agree to ship the item when requested. The posting or listing of items without the intention of exchanging them when requested is expressly prohibited and may constitute wire or mail fraud in violation of U.S. and state law. The listing or posting of items for exchange that you do not have in your physical possession is expressly prohibited.

Date Posted: 1/2/2015 6:50 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I seriously doubt PBS expects you to keep the 1st 10 books you listed forever if they never get requested.  They aren't going to come after someone for those 2 credits if they mailed other books out and the 1st 10 happen to not have been ordered and get removed.  The rule is there just to warn off people who think they post the 10 starter books, use the 2 free credits and then go without ever mailing any books out. To let people know that they have to mail some books out for those 2 bonus credits and that they should expect to mail any books they have listed. 

I deleted some of the ones I posted.  No one demanded my 2 credits back. Because I have mailed out other books.

Date Posted: 1/2/2015 6:56 PM ET
Member Since: 3/25/2014
Posts: 2,793
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Sometimes people post stuff they don't actually want to trade.   New members want to try it and get free starter credits. They freak out because as soon as they posted something  it got ordered.  Then they cancel or let it timeout.  I have had this happen to me a few times on the DVD site.  Then their account was closed or suspended.  Every time I get a wl offer from a new member I prepare myself for it to be cancelled so I'm not disappointed.  Yet it is disappointing!  Really devious would be fake posting stuff you never had or intended to mail. I"m pretty sure that happened to me and bunch of others until that member was suspended.  This member often offered slimy deals in the bazaar so when I got a wl offer from them I wondered if they were up to no good.  They used site postage and received a credit as soon as they clicked mailed.  I believe they never mailed anything to me. The money they spent on site postage at that time was considered a way to get a cheap credit.  Now you can buy credits for less than the cost of postage. 

This is the telling part:  

The posting or listing of items without the intention of exchanging them when requested is expressly prohibited and may constitute wire or mail fraud in violation of U.S. and state law. The listing or posting of items for exchange that you do not have in your physical possession is expressly prohibited.

Date Posted: 1/2/2015 6:57 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,958
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It's a general "we". None of us speak for the site. But there is no rule that you have to mail out a specific number of books to get 2 free credits, nor is there any rule about keeping 10 books on your shelf, nor is there any rule about keeping the first 10 books you posted on your shelf forever and ever.
Date Posted: 1/3/2015 10:12 AM ET
Member Since: 2/12/2006
Posts: 4,423
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It seems to me that any of us who receive (and use) those credits for the first 10 books posted have an obligation to swap a minimum of 10 books. NOT necessarily the first 10 posted.  It's just a fair exchange, plus you now have 10 more credits to spend...    WIN-WIN!  smiley

Date Posted: 1/3/2015 12:29 PM ET
Member Since: 3/25/2014
Posts: 2,793
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Anna, I'm with you in spirit on the win-win.  I don't agree with the obligation to swap 10 books for the starter credits.  

If new members want to earn credits they need to offer wl or desirable only copy books.  If new members offer common books they may have to wait years for an order.  

They can use the free starter credits and earned credits to order available books.  Otherwise they go to the back of a wl line to wait for a book.

Older members benefit when new members join and send out wl or only copy books.  

The free credits are a marketing tool to get people to join the site.  I feel it's fair and some people need that incentive to join.  



Last Edited on: 1/3/15 12:31 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/4/2015 1:35 AM ET
Member Since: 8/20/2007
Posts: 1,020
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The paragraph cited above by Melanie D. and Valerie L.

Listing or Posting
By listing or posting items for selection by the exchange community, you aver that you are the sole owner of the items and have the unrestricted right to transfer ownership thereof. By posting or listing an item for exchange with the Site, you agree to ship the item when requested. The posting or listing of items without the intention of exchanging them when requested is expressly prohibited and may constitute wire or mail fraud in violation of U.S. and state law. The listing or posting of items for exchange that you do not have in your physical possession is expressly prohibited.

is in Section 4. Exchanged Material in the Terms of Use. The link to Terms of Use (TOU or TofU) is at the very bottom of any PBS page when logged in.

 



Last Edited on: 1/4/15 1:37 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 1/4/2015 2:09 AM ET
Member Since: 8/20/2007
Posts: 1,020
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In my view, if your first 10 books were posted in good faith with the intent of mailing them if requested, that you are not obligated to keep them on your shelf "forever" if they are not. Give them some time, and if they are not requested then it is ok to remove them from your shelf and donate them or whatever. I see no reason why all 10 of your originally posted books must stay on you shelf until they are requested, and I don't think that is what PBS intended when creating the Terms Of Use.

On a second point, you do not need to have books posted on your shelf in order to request and receive books from other members.

In addition, to remove books from view  you do not need to remove books from your shelf or put your entire shelf on vacation hold to hide them. You can leave everything you've posted on your shelf and select any or all titles to be placed on Hold without going the vacation hold route which affects the availability of your entire shelf. The selected books can then be easily added back to your shelf by taking them off Hold.



Last Edited on: 1/5/15 12:08 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/4/2015 4:29 AM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,958
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Everybody keeps referring to the TOU, but there is nothing in there about needing to trade 10 books to get the 2 free credits.

The only thing it says that is relevant is that you need to have the intention to mail them when you post them. And, that you agree to ship them IF they are requested.

There is nothing in there at all about needing to leave books on your shelf until they are requested, no matter how long it takes.

PBS can change the rules they have any time they want. But they do not have any rules currently that say you need to keep 10 books on your shelf, the original 10 books on your shelf, or mail 10 books to get the 2 free credits. And, there are also zero rules about removing books from your bookshelf. PBS has made it easy to remove any book from your bookshelf, any time, for any reason or no reason at all.

If they wanted to offer 2 free credits after your first 10 books are mailed, they would and could certainly do so, I imagine. Or they could require some kind of cash deposit for the 2 free credits to be refunded after your first 10 books are mailed. But the fact is, as the site currently works, you get those free credits for posting 10 books, not mailing 10 books.

Date Posted: 1/4/2015 6:27 AM ET
Member Since: 6/30/2008
Posts: 3,010
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I think an easy way to deal with excess credits is to sell them in the book bazaar. I have done this a few times.

Date Posted: 1/4/2015 1:49 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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Everybody keeps referring to the TOU, but there is nothing in there about needing to trade 10 books to get the 2 free credits.

The only thing it says that is relevant is that you need to have the intention to mail them when you post them. And, that you agree to ship them IF they are requested.

There is nothing in there at all about needing to leave books on your shelf until they are requested, no matter how long it takes.

PBS can change the rules they have any time they want. But they do not have any rules currently that say you need to keep 10 books on your shelf, the original 10 books on your shelf, or mail 10 books to get the 2 free credits. And, there are also zero rules about removing books from your bookshelf. PBS has made it easy to remove any book from your bookshelf, any time, for any reason or no reason at all.

If they wanted to offer 2 free credits after your first 10 books are mailed, they would and could certainly do so, I imagine. Or they could require some kind of cash deposit for the 2 free credits to be refunded after your first 10 books are mailed. But the fact is, as the site currently works, you get those free credits for posting 10 books, not mailing 10 books.

You are arguing semantics Sara. It is against the Terms of Use to post books without the intent to mail them. You must post 10 books to earn the 2 start up credits. When you post 10 books, you are saying you HAVE THE INTENT TO MAIL 10 BOOKS because you agreed to a Terms of Use that says you will not post books you unless you intend to mail them. So to not do that would be a violation of the Terms of Use and the PBS Team can hold you liable for not honoring the Terms of Use. Do they use the Terms of Use to go after people who use the 2 start up credits and leave? No. Many people come to the site use the credits and leave not finding the site something they want to continue with. The issue I find is that you repeatedly tell people there is no rule, when there clearly IS a rule in the Terms of Use (it is just a rule that they are selective in enforcing only in egregious cases).

Date Posted: 1/4/2015 2:15 PM ET
Member Since: 7/19/2008
Posts: 15,476
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The rule is to offer 10 books for the two credits. They do not need to the the first ten books that you listed. Shipping out 10 books, then having an empty bookshelf would meet these terms.

Date Posted: 1/4/2015 4:15 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,958
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It is against the Terms of Use to post books without the intent to mail them.

Yes, I agree that that is what the TOU says.

However, it is NOT against the TOU to remove any book, any time, from your bookshelf. It is also not against the TOU to remove all your books from your bookshelf.

If you post it, you should have the intention of mailing it. And, if you later remove it from your bookshelf without mailing it ... that's all perfectly fine as the site rules are written now.

If I was to follow what people are saying is the logic of the TOU .. then if I post 300 books to my bookshelf and later decide that I only want to keep 200 on my bookshelf, so I remove 100 books ... I'm breaking the TOU because I posted books without intending to mail them? I don't buy it.

 I'm not arguing semantics.

The TOU very clearly does NOT have a rule about mailing ANY specific number of books out. It also very clearly has no rules about removing books from your bookshelf any time you want.

I think we can both agree that PBS could word their rules any way they want. And the fact is, they have not worded it in a way that says that 10 books MUST be mailed out. Only that when you post (not just the first 10, but ALL books), you must have the intention of mailing them out if they are requested. (To me, that means that if you join and then cancel most or all requests for your books that come in, PBS can kick you off the site because in that case, you are not following the TOU.).

And, it's not the same thing.

If PBS wanted a rule that said a bookshelf needs to have at least 10 books on it until a member mails out at least 10 books, or that you can't remove your first 10 books until a year has passed,  ... they could certainly do that. They haven't. It's not a rule.

I think telling people that they are supposed to keep their first 10 books on their bookshelf for some random, made up long period of time is wrong, when there is no rule that says that, or even implies it clearly. That may be how we (as members) wish people would use the site. It may even be how PBS wishes people would use the site. But it's not written down and it's not a rule.

If PBS makes that rule tomorrow, I'd be happy to follow it and to make sure other people know to follow it too.



Last Edited on: 1/4/15 5:18 PM ET - Total times edited: 3
Date Posted: 1/4/2015 6:38 PM ET
Member Since: 3/25/2014
Posts: 2,793
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This is from Club Basics:  

After listing your first 10 books, you get two 'startup' Book Credits good toward the selection of any other club member's books (limit two startup Book Credits per household).

 

The following rule does not mention starter credits or listing 10 books.  You have mishmased those together and formed your own rule.  It's what you think but not a rule or agreement in the Terms of Use. 

Terms of Use

4.  Exchanged Material

By using this Site, you agree to participate in the free exchange of personal property, including but not limited to books, audio books, videotapes, DVDs, video games, CDs, and other items as may be deemed appropriate for inclusion by the Site.

Listing or Posting
By listing or posting items for selection by the exchange community, you aver that you are the sole owner of the items and have the unrestricted right to transfer ownership thereof. By posting or listing an item for exchange with the Site, you agree to ship the item when requested. The posting or listing of items without the intention of exchanging them when requested is expressly prohibited and may constitute wire or mail fraud in violation of U.S. and state law. The listing or posting of items for exchange that you do not have in your physical possession is expressly prohibited.

Melanie, I sort of understand your thinking but it's not a rule.  Also those 2 starter credits are most likely used to order something with 1 or more copies and gets credits to the sending members.  Its beneficial and creates trades.     



Last Edited on: 1/4/15 6:54 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/4/2015 8:00 PM ET
Member Since: 2/12/2006
Posts: 4,423
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Perhaps I wasn't clear in my statement.  I certainly didn't mean that those first 10 books need to remain until requested.  BUT - when I joined and received my free credits, I (personally) felt that the member's part of the membership transaction was to remain an active member until 10 books had been sent out.  NOT SAYING there is any such rule (actual or inferred) - just that it's how I FELT about it.  Like most of us, I've sent out many, many more than 10.   Now, 9 yrs. down the road, I don't keep an active bookshelf.  I have most of my wishlist on auto-request and I post wishlisted books when I have one that's not a 'keeper'.

Carlyn (OP) has been a member for 4 yrs, so is certainly not a 'grab 2 credits and run' member and should feel free to remove any or all books from her PBS shelf, imo. 

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