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Topic: My First RAWP

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Subject: My First RAWP
Date Posted: 11/13/2009 4:12 PM ET
Member Since: 2/6/2009
Posts: 1,410
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But I don't mean one I recieved; I mean one I sent!

I sent a book that I thought was in good condition. I had recieved it here, read it once, and sent it off again. It arrived today and the reciever marked it as a problem. This was the PM they sent me:

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I wanted to let you know why I marked this as RWAP. Part of the criteria for postable books is the following:

Binding:

* Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book
* If the book tends to open at a particular page, this is OKAY
* Small amount of fraying or denting at top or bottom is OKAY

This book does not meet the first bullet point. Between pages 110 and 111 and pages 134 and 135 the pages are coming undone from the binding and you can see the inner part of the spine. You can click the following links to see what I mean.

[links removed]

I would appreciate the return of my credit for this book, as it was not postable to begin with. I will mark this as resolved as soon as I have my credit back.

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I recieved and sent the book in that condition because I did not think that this was a problem. If the binding was completely undone and pages falling out (which was what my first RAWP recieved was), I would never have sent it. But the pages were still tightly secured and the inner binding not horribly exposed. I would be fine recieving this book. However, if I am being too slack on the conditions, then I will change my ways.

Please let me know if you think the reciever is correct in this matter or if I am. I will abide by your thoughts and handle the situtation (to give refund or to dispute the RAWP) with your advice. Thanks guys!



Last Edited on: 11/16/09 2:58 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 11/13/2009 4:34 PM ET
Member Since: 2/24/2009
Posts: 160
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Unfortunately, based on what I can tell from the pictures, they are kinda blurry, but that looks unpostable to me.  I'm sorry.  If it wee me I'd give the credit back.

Date Posted: 11/13/2009 4:36 PM ET
Member Since: 4/30/2007
Posts: 2,728
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The receiver is correct.  Any type of binding separation makes a book unpostable.  It doesn't matter if the pages aren't falling out, if the binding is separated, it's unpostable.

Date Posted: 11/13/2009 4:59 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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IMO, it looks very grey area.  You really need better pictures to be 100% sure.  Those are pretty unfocused.  Here's the thing about that type of separation - crack & pinhole separations in and of themselves do not make a book unpostable (that's per the PBS team, btw), and that's what I'm seeing in those pics.  What's more difficult to tell, is in the darker areas, whether there are shadows making the separations in the creases look larger than they are.  I don't even see any actual loose pages, so she really needs to take some better, clearer pictures of the damage she's talking about if you have doubts about whether you should return the credit or not.

This is a fully separated or "cleaved" spine: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/rubberducky102760/8_299.jpg

This is a book with pinhole separations: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/rubberducky102760/2762798875_d3dec5c5e0.jpg and it does meet the PBS criteria for a postable book, so if the one you sent is like that or somewhere in between, you need to figure out where.

This message is from PBS sent to me personally regarding binding cracks & separations:

"We would not consider a pinhole to be a cleaved spine. Books that fall open to a specific
page are postable, and almost every paperback book that does that has at least some small separations.

What matters here is if the pages are securely attached. If they are likely to fall out on the next reading, then the book should not be posted. We really cannot clarify this any further. We need members to use their common sense and best judgment about whether a book is about to fall apart or not. This is just not something we can judge without having the books in our hands.
"

Date Posted: 11/13/2009 5:13 PM ET
Member Since: 5/14/2009
Posts: 6,852
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I agree with Kim, it is a gray area and the pictures are not clear.  Have her send clearer pictures so you can determine if there is really spine separation.

Date Posted: 11/13/2009 5:17 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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It looks like a gray area for me, too.  Espacially with binding issues, a book can be okay when sent, and then cross the line during the next reading.  It's different from, say, coffee stains which don't suddenly sprout up from use.

That's the sort of book that I would likely not repost, but chalk it up to it ending its trading life with me.

Date Posted: 11/13/2009 9:31 PM ET
Member Since: 7/31/2007
Posts: 2,690
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I'm with the group that thinks it is gray area.....need better pictures but, still gray.

Date Posted: 11/13/2009 9:42 PM ET
Member Since: 1/12/2009
Posts: 4,412
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If it's a *grey* area as to whether or not the spine is completely separating, and additional photos are needed to accurately judge the extent of the separation, why not give the receiver the benefit of the doubt & assume that, in this one instance, you just possibly missed that the wear-and-tear threshhold was exceeded?   It truthfully doesn't look postable to me & I wouldn't be very happy receiving a book in that condition, so I *vote* you refund the credit. FWIW :)

ETA - Erin, it's great that you're not getting defensive about getting this pm about your book.  Speaking for myself, I've only RWAP'd one book out of 300 or so I've received & I really was upset about having to do it - I didn't do it lightly.  And early on one of the books I sent out was RWAP.  I apologized, refunded the credit, and have tried ever since to really double check every book I send out.  I've caught several that seemed to go from postable to unpostable while sitting on my bookshelf!  Anyway, good luck!



Last Edited on: 11/13/09 9:53 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 11/13/2009 9:50 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,725
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Yeah, I'm in the gray area camp, too. I probably wouldn't mark one I received like that RWAP, because I think its still on the edge of postability, but also I probably wouldn't send it out again, knowing other people interpret rules more strictly than I do.

I think you can make a case either way, honestly.

I know that's not much help.

Date Posted: 11/14/2009 12:05 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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I'm inclined to agree with Leslie on this.  I think I would probably just return the credit & resolve the RWAP as amicably as possible.  When it comes to grey area books, or rather books that are coming close to the end of their lifespan, it's my opinion that you're always running a risk of having them marked RWAP, and even if you're correct & your book is *technically* postable, your receiver is clearly unhappy with the book.  And in cases like that, it's not even like you can really say that you're dealing with a picky receiver.  You may not be able to tell from the pics provided whether or not that book is technically postable, but you can certainly tell from looking at them why the receiver doesn't think so, and in cases like that, I'd say the thing to do is refund the credit.  Just MHO.

Date Posted: 11/14/2009 4:43 PM ET
Member Since: 11/15/2008
Posts: 3,308
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I would also err on the side of returning the credit, though based on what I can see I would also consider this a grey area. I would probably not send that book FIFO.  If I marked every one I got that had pinhole separations RWAP, though, I would probably be marking 50-75% of  MMPBs RWAP.  It seems as if you look at some of them and the pages start to do that.

Date Posted: 11/15/2009 1:01 AM ET
Member Since: 2/6/2009
Posts: 1,410
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Thanks guys. I really appriciate all the comments and advice.

I got another PM from the reciever, who saw my thread and responded with more pictures, even though I didnt request it. Here it is:

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Hi again.

Someone in your forum thread suggested that clearer pictures were needed. I had my husband take a few close-up pictures with his actual camera (I used my iPhone for the first set of pictures) that can be found through this link:

http://gallery.me.com/zacheryjensen/100232

As someone mentioned, the PBS Team has stated that pinhole marks between the pages are postable. However, these are not pinhole marks as the pictures clearly show. I can see the white of the spine between several of the pages. Had they have been pinhole marks, I would not have marked the book RWAP.
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I wasn't going to ask for anymore pictures; I was going to follow your advice and simply return the credit with an apology to save from further hassel. Though I am glad she sent clearer pictures. I shall write a reply PM and return the credit in the morning. Thanks again for all your comments everyone!
Date Posted: 11/15/2009 1:55 AM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,171
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More kudos regarding your attitude Erin (and your receiver) 

Date Posted: 11/15/2009 1:55 AM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,171
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Date Posted: 11/15/2009 6:14 AM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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I thank you for your great attitude and I think you are a great PBS member just because of that.  While I'm not one to automatically return a credit just because the requestor says so, I do double check all my books and I try to be sure that my outgoing books meet the requirements.  This has been on my mind the last couple of days because I received 2 orders with stringent RC's.  I do believe in the PBS book karma  - what goes around comes around.  You're a winner.

Ruth

Date Posted: 11/16/2009 12:04 PM ET
Member Since: 2/6/2009
Posts: 1,410
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Well, a day later than I meant it to be but I just sent a friendly PM to the reciever and the refunded credit she asked for. Problem resolved.


And I want to thank you guys, not only for the advice you gave me but also for the kind words you wrote about how I handled the situation. I read them the thread when I was feeling down this weekend (not about the problem swap; about other things in my life) and it really cheered me up. Thanks guys. I really appriciated it.

:D

Date Posted: 11/16/2009 12:53 PM ET
Member Since: 6/20/2007
Posts: 4,979
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Erin, can I make one last suggestion?  I suggest that you remove the links for the original pictures.  I can tell who the recipient is by looking at the links.

Date Posted: 11/16/2009 2:58 PM ET
Member Since: 2/6/2009
Posts: 1,410
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Haha, thanks, Sheryl. I'll do that right now.