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Topic: "New" gay culture v "old" gay culture?

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Subject: "New" gay culture v "old" gay culture?
Date Posted: 8/28/2007 2:10 PM ET
Member Since: 1/9/2006
Posts: 6,638
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I read this this morning http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/08/old-gay-culture.html    

It's about the arrest of Sen. Larry Craig of Idaho and what it suggests about how gay culture has changed and normalized. 

It's interesting to reflect on how the blue laws work to create a culture and practice that's easily dismissed while access to full family rights could stamp out the aspects of what the writer calls "old" gay culture that most offend straight culture and invigorate the opposition to full family rights.   I know one of the first gay couples (guys) I came to know well lived quietly with their daughter who was my daughter's friend.  It's hard to work up a lot of enmity when you see people working at jobs, trying to raise kids, voluteering in community activities and so on but so much easier when you can promote the image of an elderly guy trolling in a restroom for anonymous sex. 

Anyway, maybe this is old information for you guys, but I thought it was articulated very well.



Last Edited on: 8/28/07 2:40 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/28/2007 10:26 PM ET
Member Since: 12/6/2006
Posts: 15,054
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This evening, I was unable to load your link, as well as obtain the article by going directly to the Atlantic Monthly Website, so I am responding to only your post:

I am against the idea of assimilation. It is important that all members of our community are embraced as unique individuals.

Therefore, no one is too "Out," too masculine, too feminine, or too similar or different from me!!!

Actually, it is with the efforts of our elders that has helped set the foundation for the current rights we have.

Yes, I agree the community does not always have perfect role models, but no community does!!!

Finally, anonymous sex in restrooms being limited to elderly guys is such a false staement, that I feel it is offensive to our gay elderly gentleman!

 



Last Edited on: 8/28/07 10:29 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/28/2007 10:50 PM ET
Member Since: 1/9/2006
Posts: 6,638
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It wasn't meant to be offensive and I'm sorry if it is.  It was a reference to Larry Craig and his closeted obsession/homophobic public persona.  Perhaps this link will work better and re-reading my comments in the context of the article will make it make more sense. 

 

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/08/old-gay-culture.html



Last Edited on: 8/28/07 10:52 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/29/2007 7:10 AM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2005
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I'm with Richard that the big gay Rainbow flag needs to embrace all members of the gay culture.

That being said, I think that there are possibly more gay couple living quiet lives (or not so quiet...), raising families etc. more than say 20 years ago. But the fact that everything & everyone is much more visible in this day & age might also make it seem that there are more couples than say 10 to 20 years ago. 

I kind of 'get' what the writer is trying to say - that with the rise of gays wanting to be married there will be less of them cruising the public restrooms, thus those who search out that kind of sex will get less of it.  And those especially who are closeted 'straights' are threatened because there will be less men cruising.  Kind of doubt that since there has always been men cruising for sex (and women too) and something tells me there always will be.

I'm hoping that makes some sort of sense, it's early & I haven't had enough coffee yet... 

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 8:16 AM ET
Member Since: 2/16/2007
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It may just be that more people are visibly out.  I'm not sure the "old" culture went away...well I'm sure it toned down with AIDS but there are still plenty of people having anonymous sex, doing drugs and partying....which is the image I'm sure so many object to. (although they didn't seem to object to it but embrace it when it was between heterosexuals - think studio 54 era)

But isn't it always he who yells the loudest gets the attention.  Why would the media focus on the quiet couple who have been together for 25 years rather than the loud adorable party boys with no shirts tweeked out on X dancing in the street -that makes a better more scary image for TV...besides we are a culture that thrives on fear so the media scews everything to make us fear what we don't know.

That said more and more families are stepping into the limelight and demanding rights, more LGBT couples are adopting and with children comes the need for security and thus marriage.  So I don't know if the "old"culture is dying or if the part of the "old" culture that no one paid attention to is finally standing up, shouting and saying "hey what about us!" 

I think all cultures evolve - so change is invevitable.

well thats just my $.02 and I'm with Mary I haven't had enough caffeine yet so I apologize if that didn't makes sense. 

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 9:01 AM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2005
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Heidi - it's nice to know I have good company this morning, lol.

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 12:54 PM ET
Member Since: 11/28/2006
Posts: 2,087
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Below is a link showing Sen. Larry Craig calling Bill Clinton a "nasty, naughty boy."  Typical hypocrite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Vs5570pKw

 Then again, maybe Sen. Craig is really interested in "nasty, naughty boys."

 

 



Last Edited on: 8/29/07 12:55 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/29/2007 2:35 PM ET
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LOL at Beverly!! Sen. Craig is sounding more & more like a big idiot if you ask me, which shouldn't surprise me.  (is this were we all get to start singing 'Another one bites the dust' ? ;-)

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 3:28 PM ET
Member Since: 12/6/2006
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Rainey, the new link worked (tho I had to switch from my Firefox Browser to IE)...

To be specific to what I felt was offensive to older gay men, it was calling them trolls...

Trying to not repeat what has already been mentioned: it is true that there are more LGBTQ individuals and couples around now, and could possibly be explained: (1) the US population has grown due to more births than deaths, and in the advancements of medicines and science that has reduced the mortaility rate of many diseases and also has extended the lives of our older population; (2) an increase in visibility as well as reduction of treating homosexuality as a disease needing to be cured, has led to positve role models, an understanding that homosexuality is mostly biologically determined, and thus overall reducing the fear for LGBTQ to persons "come out" to themselves, their families and their friends.

Therefore, the main differences in cultures is not a reduced amount of anonymous sex, but that the age of an individual "coming out" is now in the teens, instead of previously being in the 20's and 30's.

Accordingly, many individuals do want homes, a life partner, a good job, etc. thus, by having these goals at a younger age, leads to an increase in those achieving a life of happiness.

 

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 3:50 PM ET
Member Since: 1/9/2006
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OK.  I can see that I used an unfortunate word.  I wasn't thinking of "trolling" as being a troll but as a fishing technique of casting a wide net and seeing what turned up.  This was what I interpreted Craig to be doing having created a firey publicly anti-day persona and being, thus, reduced to anonymous desperation sex as opposed to the newer style of being candid about sexual orientation and being, as a result, free to pursue a family life as a gay. 

I am not gay and, therefore, not privy to the various expressions of gay culture.  I had read someone else's article and took it to be an interesting theory on why older gay people might be somewhat dependent on the clandestine approach.  I offered it as a question in an effort to learn more. 

If it isn't an interesting or helpful topic, just ignore it.  And I'll think more carefully about what words I use in the future. 

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 4:00 PM ET
Member Since: 12/6/2006
Posts: 15,054
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I see now how this story was just "leaked" into the news...

Well, if you were wondering, here is a copy of the a-rest-ing officer's report:   http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/craig-arrest-doc/

Craig has yet to decide if he'll "run" again...

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 4:01 PM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2005
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Rainey - we just need to get you a GLBT dictionary!!  Shoot, I'm a lesbian & I can't keep up with all the words and such, lol.

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 4:03 PM ET
Member Since: 12/6/2006
Posts: 15,054
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Rainey, it is a timely and interesting discussion...thanks for posting the article...

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 5:48 PM ET
Member Since: 1/9/2006
Posts: 6,638
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Mary-  Less GLBT, perhaps, than cyber/techno speak but it really was a word open to different interpretations and needed some sorting out.  In retrospect that's clear.  On writing, what I was thinking was clearer in my mind.  I hope and trust no-harm-no-foul applies.  ;> 

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 6:10 PM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2005
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No harm no foul here.  I've read enough of what you write to know that in no way would you ever mean to be hurtful & you are known to take everything into consideration and making educated decisions.

Btw, DP loves your running with sissors avatar! (I'm pretty fond of it myself, lol)

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 7:23 PM ET
Member Since: 11/28/2006
Posts: 2,087
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You know, I never noticed until you mentioned it that the running avatar has scissors! 

 

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 7:36 PM ET
Member Since: 1/9/2006
Posts: 6,638
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That's why I picked it. That's me!   Or at least as much of me as I could find in an avitar.    }=P

L. G. (L)
Date Posted: 8/29/2007 7:49 PM ET
Member Since: 9/5/2005
Posts: 12,412
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...and I always thought it was a cross...LOL... (Until Rainey explained it to me!)

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 8:24 PM ET
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A cross?!  Very NOT me!  ;>

Date Posted: 8/29/2007 10:26 PM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2005
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Rainey, I have to admit that I also thought it was a cross at first glance, until it hit me that the person is running with scissors. lol

Date Posted: 9/1/2007 6:51 AM ET
Member Since: 12/6/2006
Posts: 15,054
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    I noticed that the below book, which was recently revealed in our Rainbow Swap Game, discusses the pros and cons of "normalcy" aka "new vs. old culture." 

I thought I'd post the info here as it relates to this post's discussion.

    "The Trouble with Normal: Sex, Politics, and the Ethics of Queer Life" by Michael Warner.   http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Normal-Politics-Ethics-Queer/dp/0674004418/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-6885673-7019230?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188479813&sr=8-2




Last Edited on: 9/1/07 6:52 AM ET - Total times edited: 1