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Subject: Old topic but updated...
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 1:07 PM ET
Member Since: 10/5/2010
Posts: 196
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Here is some of the information on a book I requested.

Request Date: 12/14/2010 7:36 PM ET
Date Mailed: 12/20/2010 3:55 PM ET
Date Canceled: 1/15/2011 3:19 AM ET

The book went lost on the 15th. I'm not sure why cause when it was on the en route page it said the date to go lost was on 1/16/11. But anyways, since there has been a couple snow storms hit in a couple states, I decided to wait 1 more week to get a new copy. I needed to have this book read by 1/23/11 for a book club and the book is 290 pages long. I didn't want to wait anymore so this morning I went and just bought me a copy at the store thinking that the book I requested was actually really lost in the mail.

I got home and checked the mail and the book arrived today. The problem with this book is that in my RC I asked for books to be sent with extra layers of clothing due to weather conditions. The book arrived with no extra layer of protection and is currently wet from the snow. Another problem is that as you can see above, the sender marked the book mailed on 12/20/10 and did not use PBS tracking or postage. There's a post mark on there stating that the book was actually mailed on 1/18/11 which was just this past Tuesday.

She also wrote me a note explaining that she marked it mailed and was on her way to the post office to send the book to me but her husband went into a stroke and she rushed him to the hospital so was unable to send the book until 1/18/11 which is just about 1 month after she mailed it.

I tried looking up in the help section on what to do in this case but can't find anything on it. I'm not sure if I was typing in the correct wording when searching. I also remember running across a topic once that if I got the book from somewhere else I don't have to mark the book receive?

What do I do in this case that I already have the book and the book was mailed a month late and it got wet cause sender didn't follow my RC?



Last Edited on: 1/26/11 4:35 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 1:18 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,961
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If it has a postmark from after it was already going lost in the mail (and since you have a second copy) you do not need to mark it received. You can just keep the extra copy.

Sometimes I wonder if every single member who mails books a month late really had to go to the hospital. (I know it DOES happen, I just wonder if this is how it happens every single time?)

In any case, once she was back to normal life enough to mail out the books, she should have PM'd you before mailing the book out that late to make sure that you still wanted it. If she did not PM you first, then that is really her fault.



Last Edited on: 1/21/11 1:20 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 1:22 PM ET
Member Since: 3/7/2009
Posts: 10,975
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In the Help Center, on the Quick Help links, at the bottom of the list it says "I received 2 copies of the same book!"  There is says

*There is an exception for late-mailed books:

  • If a book was mailed more than 2 weeks late without notice to you about late mailing before it was mailed and
  • was already declared Lost at PBS before it arrives, and
  • you re-requested the book after it was declared "lost in the mail"  and
  • you end up with 2 copies, THEN
  • you do not have to mark the late-mailed-without-notice copy received.
    • Note: the late mailing must be confirmed- either the sender has told you this or the postmark on the package confirms it.  Sometimes Media Mail takes a long time, so a late-arriving book cannot be presumed to have been mailed late.
  • The rules governing late-mailing are:
    • If a sender wants to mail a book that has been declared Lost at PBS already she needs to contact you with a Personal Message asking you to confirm that you still want the book from her, and
    • You would need to have confirmed that you still wanted her copy of the book in a Personal Message in reply to hers before she mailed it.
  • The bottom line: If a sender sends a book late without getting confirmation from you that you have not gotten or requested another copy in the meantime, and you end up with two copies of the book, the sender has made the mistake here.  In this case (and ONLY in this case) you are not obligated to mark the lost book received (nor are you obligated to return the extra copy).


Last Edited on: 1/21/11 1:22 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Sianeka - ,
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 1:28 PM ET
Member Since: 2/8/2007
Posts: 6,630
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 ETA:  A FELLOW TOUR GUIDE SENT IN FEEDBACK TO THE SITE ADMINS FOR CLARIFICATION ON THIS AND THEIR ANSWER IS THAT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE 2ND COPY CAME FROM, IF POSTMARK IS LATE OR IF SENDER ADMITS TO LATE MAILING WITHOUT NOTIFYING REQUESTOR.  REVISING MY RESPONSE!

"I also remember running across a topic once that if I got the book from somewhere else I don't have to mark the book receive?"

Just to clarify for you:  Normally, you WOULD need to mark a "Lost" book as received if you purchased a second copy yourself and didn't get the 2nd copy through PBS.  The  'not needing to mark the book as Received here' is only valid in the case where you got a second copy from PBS and the postmark on the first copy was very late (such as was the case in your situation, if you got the second book from PBS instead of purchasing it) OR IF THE SENDER ADMITTED MAILING LATE WITHOUT NOTIFYING YOU ABOUT IT.

From the Help Center:

Lost books must be marked received when/if they arrive, to keep your account in good standing.

If the book has a very late postmark on it and you have re-requested it and you will end up with (or have already ended up with) 2 copies, see My requested book arrived with a late postmark! for information

If the book was declared lost in the mail and you requested and received (or will receive) a second copy because you thought the first one was really lost:

  • If the postmark was from the week before the book was declared lost (or later!), and you got no notification from the sender that the book would be/was mailed late: you do not have to mark this book received (this is the ONE case in which you don't have to mark a received book received: if a very late mailer without notice caused you to reorder the book and end up with two copies).

So, in summary, if you receive a Lost book you MUST mark it received, UNLESS Sender admits mailing late and not notifying you OR if postmark shows that book was mailed within a week before the book was marked "Lost".



Last Edited on: 1/21/11 1:59 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 1:38 PM ET
Member Since: 1/20/2009
Posts: 2,680
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But, didn't the PBS members basically come to a consensus in prior forum posts that the rule should still apply if you ended up buying the book from elsewhere, or otherwise getting a second copy? It seems to me that's basically the intent of the rule. Though PBS never really clarified it beyond as it's written, it doesn't seem fair to me that someone wouldn't have to give credit if they got another copy through PBS, but would have to if they got tired of waiting and bought it or whatever, even if the sender were to mail the book a month or more late (which we all know does happen).

I'm actually tempted to send in feedback about that rule and get final clarification.



Last Edited on: 1/21/11 1:39 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 1:58 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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Yes Tif, I just send Sianeka the Feedback I received on it, she'll be along shortly to edit :)

Date Posted: 1/21/2011 2:08 PM ET
Member Since: 10/5/2010
Posts: 196
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Thanks Sianeka.

Date Posted: 1/21/2011 2:43 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I think if you go out a buy a copy right after a book goes lost and it arrives and was mailed on time-you owe them a credit. It's not their fault the PO took longer or that you needed it by a certain date. (I never trust to receive a book from PBS if I need it by a certain date).

In this instant: she clearly mailed it late and didn't get your permission first.  You don't have to mark it received.

 

Also, doesn't it say somewhere in the help docs that you should wait at least 2 wks before reordering/purchasing another copy?



Last Edited on: 1/21/11 2:44 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 2:55 PM ET
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 30,800
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If you do mark it received it is certainly a RWAP since they didn't follow your RC.  Ask for your credit back and give them a deadline for returning the credit.

Date Posted: 1/21/2011 3:05 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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I agree entirely with Sara's comment.  From memory here, but I'm leaning towards any second copy regardless of where it was acquired.  There was some clarification recently from TPTB.

BTW - it's very frustrating the TPTB do not enforce the guidelines regarding very late mailings.  There IS a rule in play here, and it's frequently ignored and makes life difficult & confusing for members requesting books.  Just how long is a member responsible for the credit...30 days, 90 days, 6 months?  We've seen comments posted regarding books mailed months later, not fair to penalize the receiver for senders in violation of mailing rules.



Last Edited on: 1/21/11 3:06 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 3:08 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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Yes Mary, the help docs suggest waiting 2 weeks before seeking the book from someone/somewhere else.

One thing the Teams stressed is communication when I discussed this issue with them. Before going to get another copy, a simple PM to the first sender asking if the book had been mailed can avoid a member getting duplicates.  This 1st sender may have sent the book assuming you still wanted it because she hadn't heard from you and she sent it on the first day the post office was open after the lost date. A bad assumption of course, but had you sent her a PM saying that you needed the book and were buying it elsewhere, she may not have mailed it or would have told you the book was already on the way. Just something to keep in mind for the future - it isn't just on the sender to communicate in this situation, it helps avoid problems if the receiver does a little too.

Date Posted: 1/21/2011 3:27 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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The sender violated PBS rules by mailing the book late without receiving permission from the requester

Why the insistance on penalizing the receiver because she acquired a 2nd copy of the book after it went lost (and was in fact not even mailed yet).

If the sender had followed the posted rules, the OP would not be wasting her valuable time trying to figure out what's the right thing to do in this situation. 

The book was mailed after the 'lost' date without receiving permission from the requester.  The requester 'got' a 2nd copy of the book (see highlighted rule below), and therefore is not required to log the book in as received.

More from the rules:

  • The rules governing late-mailing are:
    • If a sender wants to mail a book that has been declared Lost at PBS already she needs to contact you with a Personal Message asking you to confirm that you still want the book from her, and
    • You would need to have confirmed that you still wanted her copy of the book in a Personal Message in reply to hers before she mailed it.
  • The bottom line: If a sender sends a book late without getting confirmation from you that you have not gotten or requested another copy in the meantime, and you end up with two copies of the book, the sender has made the mistake here.  In this case (and ONLY in this case) you are not obligated to mark the lost book received (nor are you obligated to return the extra copy).


Last Edited on: 1/21/11 3:38 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 1/21/2011 3:34 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,961
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Whether or not you have a second copy, if the first book was mailed on time, as defined in the rules, you have to give the credit for it. That's my understanding.
(And, I think this is fair because after all, the receiver ends up with the book, so the transaction is not a total loss for the receiver, they can get the credit back by posting the book, just like a normal PBS transaction. If receivers did not have to give the credit, it would unfairly penalize the sender, who did nothing wrong and would suffer a total loss, having neither the book nor the credit.)

If the book is mailed late but you don't have another copy, then you also have to give the credit.
(I think this is also fair, because although the sender is in the wrong by mailing late, they did spend money to mail the book out, and the receiver gets the book they wanted, although annoyingly later than they should have).

Melanie, I agree about the communication being two ways, and I would probably send a PM myself before I ordered another copy of something ... but I really think that 95% of the responsibility in this situation is on the sender to contact the requestor when they have mailed late.  As a sender, if I notice a book getting to the "lost" date, I always send a PM asking if they received the book, and I also let them know that it was mailed on time, so they are not left wondering if I never mailed it out or mailed it out later than I should have. This way, I prompt them to mark it received if they are dilly-dallying and at the same time, give them a clue that they shouldn't rush to order another copy if it really didn't arrive yet.

Date Posted: 1/21/2011 3:40 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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I need a button that automatically posts "I agree with Sara" . . . again!

Date Posted: 1/21/2011 7:10 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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Why the insistance on penalizing the receiver because she acquired a 2nd copy of the book after it went lost (and was in fact not even mailed yet). I don't think anyone insisted she be penalized, everyone agreed that the criteria required for her to not mark it received were met once it was figured out the Team does not required an exact interpretation of the Help Docs wording on requesting another copy. The rest of the discussion was on how communication or waiting the PBS suggested time may have avoided the problem. She could have easily received a book that was mailed less than 2 weeks late and had to have given the credit.

My feeling of late mailing is much the same - mail the book late and risk losing your credit. But the Feedback I received from the Team clearly showed that my opinion was not shared by them <gasp ;-P> I didn't post the Feedback, but sent it to Sianeka because another TG has requested I not post it to the general boards when I first got it since it does appear to shift a lot of the responsibility to communicate to the receiver, but I think it will paint a better picture of what they expect in these situations. 

The Feedback was from mid 2010 and pertained to a situation where a member got a late mailed book, but hadn't gotten another copy because she decided she didn't want it and the argument of how long she was obligated to "pay" for the book broke out.

Dear Melanie,

As the Help doc "My requested book arrived with a late postmark!" in the Help Center makes clear, if a book is (1) mailed late without notice so that (2) it is "lost" in the mail before it arrives and (3) the requestor ends up with 2 copies of the book as a result, the requestor does not have to mark the late-mailed book received, regardless of where the second copy came from.

This is not something we're going to be able to put an exact time limit on and we are definitely not going to start analyzing wish lists to determine the veracity of our members.

The requestor needs to use some common sense in making the judgment about whether the sender mailed late or not. The sender is not required to follow up on books once she's mailed them, so just because she did not send a Personal Message when the book was declared lost does not mean that the requestor can assume it was definitely mailed late. If a requestor gets a book that was postmarked late (and by that we mean an inked postmark with a readable date, not a metered strip with a printed date), a simple Personal Message to the sender saying something like "Wow, this book finally arrived. Did you just mail it, or has it been lost in the USPS system all this time?" will probably provide an answer.

If the sender says she just mailed it, or if she doesn't respond to the PM within four or five days, the requestor can assume it was mailed late, and IF the requestor has ended up with 2 copies of the book at that point, it is OK to not mark the late-mailed book received. On the other hand, if the sender replies immediately and asserts that she mailed it on time and possibly even expresses some astonishment at how long it took to get there, then the requestor should take her at her word and assume this was a USPS error and mark the book received, even if she has gotten a second copy.

A book that has metered postage or a DC barcode with an "Acceptance" scan in the system can be treated as if it were mailed on that "acceptance"/metered-postmark date.

We also think requestors would be wise to be proactive about "lost" books - before reordering, sending a simple PM to the sender from the "lost" transaction asking about the book can be helpful. "Did you mail this late? It hasn't arrived" may get a confirmation that the book was mailed late, or an explanation that the sender is in HI or AK or GU or PR or a military address, and books sometimes take time getting to the contiguous US. That information might prevent a re-order if the requestor does not want to risk getting two copies.

We hope this information is helpful. Thanks for trying to help other members with this question,

Date Posted: 1/22/2011 3:24 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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Apologies Melanie, I shouldn't have posted while feeling snarky.

Honestly, I think the PBS guidelines are excellent and very well thought out.  But this one makes me a bit bugnuts sometimes.  B/c the mailing rule is only enforced if the requester has acquired a 2nd copy of the book.  Otherwise the requester is on the hook for a credit...basically forever, even if they take the book off wishlist.  For every legit late mailing scenario, there's also a legit scenario where the requester no longer needs or wants the book after 4 weeks (or 4 months).

*hugs* and thank you.



Last Edited on: 1/22/11 10:17 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 1/22/2011 10:13 PM ET
Member Since: 10/5/2010
Posts: 196
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Melanie: I would've just returned the book I bought and gave a credit for the one receive in this situation but was a little confused if I should or not due to the fact that it was mailed extremely late and I didn't know about it and had it not been in RWAP condition.

Date Posted: 1/22/2011 11:13 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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I do agree with you on the issue of late mailers Denise :) 

Yengkong, I am in no way saying you should go through the effort of returning the book or anything. The only point I was trying to make (and the one the Team makes in their Feedback) was that if you had PMed the sender at some point that you were going go you buy to the book, they may not have sent it or would have told you it was already on the way and the whole mess of  2 copies could have been avoided.

Date Posted: 1/23/2011 12:41 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,961
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I honestly think that if the PBS team feels that receivers should contact senders before they order or otherwise obtain second copies, that they should put that in the rules.

I completely disagree with having "unwritten rules". Even though what they recommend in this case makes perfect sense. They should at least put it in the rules as a recommended course of action, even if it is not a required course of action.

Date Posted: 1/23/2011 2:43 PM ET
Member Since: 10/5/2010
Posts: 196
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Just thought I'd update everyone on this.

Because of the dilema here, I decided to just contact PBS team directly to see what I should do. PBS team got back to me stating that I do not have to mark the book received since the sender did not contact me stating she will be sending this book late.

So problem solved, I'm not required to mark this book received even if it's an RWAP book since it was mailed late.

Date Posted: 1/23/2011 4:51 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,961
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So problem solved, I'm not required to mark this book received even if it's an RWAP book since it was mailed late.

The actual reason would be that you have already obtained a second copy AND it was mailed late.

The rules state very clearly that if a book is only mailed late but you don't have a second copy, then you would have to mark it received.

 

Jen W. (syne) -
Date Posted: 1/23/2011 9:24 PM ET
Member Since: 9/7/2010
Posts: 139
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I'm pretty sure I had a problem with the same member.  I requested a book in early december, never got it and it was marked lost.  Right after it was marked lost, she sent a message saying her husband was in the hospial and she was just now mailing it out a month later.  No communication before that and never told me it would be late.  

Now about 2 weeks after her message, I still haven't received the book, but she asked me to go to the transaction archive and mark it received.  I found that kind of odd since I never got the book, and I don't think I will mark it received until I have the book.   

But I'm pretty sure its the same member.  And its not a big deal, just a little frustrating that a month went by with no communication of the book being late/not being sent. 



Last Edited on: 1/23/11 9:30 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 1/23/2011 9:35 PM ET
Member Since: 9/13/2007
Posts: 2,520
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Jen, 

There are a lot of members here, I highly doubt you two were actually dealing with the same person. Especially since the original poster did not receive a message from their sender, why would they contact one of you and not the other? 

I do hope you didn't mark it received, you should never do that unless you have a book in your hand. If you have you should contact PBS because they are probably the only ones who can straighten things out at this point.

Jen W. (syne) -
Date Posted: 1/23/2011 9:58 PM ET
Member Since: 9/7/2010
Posts: 139
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It just sounded a lot alike, but like you said more that likely not the same person.  I did not mark it received, I didn't think that was right.  I am waiting for the member to pm me back, giving them one last chance and seeing if they did mail the book.  Then I will go from there. 

Date Posted: 1/23/2011 10:49 PM ET
Member Since: 10/5/2010
Posts: 196
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Liesl, I didn't get a PM until after the book marked lost. She PM'd me then for me to mark it received. I got a typed up note with the book when it arrived explaining of the hospital situation.

Sara, it could be that but I'm just saying what PBS Team told me. Anyways, problem solved here already so I'm just going to move on and so does she.

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