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Topic: Is this a paperback or not?

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Subject: Is this a paperback or not?
Date Posted: 3/8/2011 7:07 PM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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I entered the ISBN of a book and it was listed as a paperback.  My copy certainly begin its life as a paperback but it had been a library copy so it had those stiff library covers added. ( Hard to describe but you know what I mean)

Since it WAS a paperback I accepted the listing. It's certainly NOT a hardback.

Now the reciever is upset. He says he requested a paperback and what I sent him is a "library copy, not a paperback."

He did not ask for his credit back but if enough people agree with him I'll return his credit.

If enough peole say it's a paperback, well....

(He also says there were pages coming out which I can't agree with as we look all the books over before sending out. Who wants to lose a credit? )

 

Date Posted: 3/8/2011 7:21 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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It sounds like what you sent was a turtleback or library binding, both or viable PBS listings, though I don't believe you can select either of them if you set it up as a book without an ISBN.

Library binding can also be paperback IMO. Was the cover still a soft, pliable cover or was it stiff and hard? If it was still a soft, pliable cover then my opinion would be that is was ok to post it as a "paperback" book. I have received books that were clearly library bindings, but also a "hard cover". 

If the book was stiff and no longer pliable, then I would probably agree with the requester that it is not a paperback book, but a turtleback, libary binding, or hard cover and shouldn't have been listed under a paperback listing.

Date Posted: 3/8/2011 7:38 PM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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When you are listing a book without an ISBN you do not have all those options.

You can choose from only 2 options: Paperback or Hardcover. That's it. Since it's not a hardcover it must be a paperback.

The library binder put on stiff hard covers. But that certainly doesn't make it a hardcover,

So I ask again, does it mean that it's a paperback or is the man's complaint justified?

Date Posted: 3/8/2011 7:50 PM ET
Member Since: 7/7/2007
Posts: 4,815
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<<You can choose from only 2 options: Paperback or Hardcover. That's it. Since it's not a hardcover it must be a paperback.>>

Not true -- there is an option for "Other", which is where things like turtlebacks, spinal and comb bindings go.

Since this situation isn't covered in the Help Center, you may wish to seek a formal ruling from the PBS Team via Feedback, rather than polling your fellow members.

Date Posted: 3/8/2011 8:26 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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The library binder put on stiff hard covers. But that certainly doesn't make it a hardcover  My opinion is that the application of stiff hard covers would make it a hard covered book, no longer a paperback if you need to chose between the 2; but other would be a better choice.

The only thing you will find here is opinions though, since none of us can see or feel the book nor know what the Team's intention would be for an unusual situation. Contacting them is the only way to look for an official answer though it may be one of those instances where they won't make a judgement since they can't see the book.

Date Posted: 3/8/2011 8:38 PM ET
Member Since: 5/3/2006
Posts: 6,436
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If the book is actually *the paperback edition*, with stiffeners added afterwards by the library, I think it was okay to post. Library extras are covered as postable and the book was not magically turned into the hardcover edition.

Date Posted: 3/8/2011 8:40 PM ET
Member Since: 11/30/2007
Posts: 4,986
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I bought quite a few of those books at the library sale and posted them as it says here on PBS, as paperback books. Only if a member has an RC not wanting ex-library books would I not send them. They are the size of paperback books, not the size of hardcover books, they just have a stiff cover. So, to me they are considered paperback ex-library books.

Date Posted: 3/9/2011 12:32 AM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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I'll agree, the best 'poll' might be to contact TPTB on this one (then let us know please).

My local library has been applying a clear semi-rigid plastic to the outside of some paperbacks (those in regular circulation).  I would consider those to still be a paperback.  Some of the other possibilities are iffy.

IMO a library binding is a hardcover especially published for library use (full color cover instead of dust jacket).

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 12:57 AM ET
Member Since: 5/3/2006
Posts: 6,436
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"IMO a library binding is a hardcover especially published for library use (full color cover instead of dust jacket)."

Not just your opinion -- fact. :-) A library binding is part of the book's manufacture, not added by the library.

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 3:10 AM ET
Member Since: 11/30/2007
Posts: 4,986
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Hope Thomas comes back and lets us know what the PBS team's  response was.

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 6:43 AM ET
Member Since: 5/15/2005
Posts: 1,328
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I don't have an answer to the OP's question but wanted to add that years ago, when I volunteered at the public library, we would buy copies of books that were true library bindings. But we also sent regular paperback copies of the more popular books that were donated to us by the public (the early Harry Potter books come to mind) to a local book binder and he would remove the cover, reinforce it, and put the reinforced cover back on the book. Maybe that was what the OP had.

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 12:52 PM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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Yes, I think that''s what it was: a regular paperback book with those reinforced coves added. I think they're especially populaR AT SCHOOLS. sO DOES IT FULFILL THE QUALIFICATION OF BEING A PAPERBACK?

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 12:56 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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Have you used the Contact Us link and asked Thomas? That is the only way you are going to get an official answer, they don't read the forums. As you can see here, even us TGs have different opinions.

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 1:13 PM ET
Member Since: 8/15/2007
Posts: 3,044
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If you're sure it was a paperback, and just reinforced by the library, then don't return the credit.

Your doubt makes me think you should just return the credit though. I think you'll feel better in the long run since I can only think guilt over sending something I wasn't sure about would keep me asking and wondering about returning a credit instead of just denying the refund if I really thought I'd posted the book correctly and there was no doubt.

Date Posted: 3/11/2011 1:28 PM ET
Member Since: 10/13/2007
Posts: 36,445
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Thomas- are you meaning a hard plastic cover that is on there OR has the cover been laminated?glued to hard carboard and bound into the book.

Those hard plastic adhesive covers are done AFTER publishing, think thick con-tact plastic.  Usually the library or vendor puts those on. They are still deemed paperbacks

The other kind-turtleback would be considered a hardcover now.

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 9:33 AM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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Do you mean the tour guide. Unfortunately their advice didn't help much. Here is what she wrote:

"After making sure I was right with my fellow tour guides, if the book bends, it is paperback, whether it has been rebound or not."

There are 2 problems with that. First, I no longer have the book. The requestor does. So I can not use that test.  Secondly, Every cover has some bend even a hard cover. This was a stiffener added to a paperback by the library so it has some bend. But not like the paper cover of a paperback.

I think , in fact I'm sure, that it was done after publishing, by the library.

Another commenter said:

"Your doubt makes me think you should just return the credit though. I think you'll feel better in the long run since I can only think guilt over sending something I wasn't sure about would keep me asking and wondering about returning a credit instead of just denying the refund if I really thought I'd posted the book correctly and there was no doubt."

No, it is because it ought to be decided. Ex-library books are frequently swapped on this site. I have both sent and received quite a few. Some people have written RCs with the requirement " No ex-library books" and I would certainly respect that RC.

But if everyone who received an ex-library book ( with the reinforced covers), and who did not have an RC, then said that it was not  a paperback and pressed RWAP, it would create havoc. Same thing if you sent it as a hard cover. If you don't want such books you should write an RC.

Anyway I wouldn't have minded the credit ("Life is too short...") until he threw in that the pages were falling out. We look over all the books we send ( We don't want to waste the postage) and they were not . That was an insult that got my dander up.

 

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 11:06 AM ET
Member Since: 1/12/2009
Posts: 4,412
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"If the book is actually *the paperback edition*, with stiffeners added afterwards by the library, I think it was okay to post. Library extras are covered as postable and the book was not magically turned into the hardcover edition."

yesyes = My *vote*

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 2:20 PM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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I  sent this to the "gentleman" this morning:

"I would not mind giving a credit back if I thought I did something wrong but I believe that that book does qualify as a paperback. ( It certain;y is not a hardcover.)
Ex-library books are acceptable in PBS. They are sent all the time and mentioned frequently in the comments section.
I guess we will continue to disagree but I feel the book meets PBS standards."

Here is his reply:

"I guess we agree that you are a rip-off artist."

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 2:37 PM ET
Member Since: 11/28/2010
Posts: 754
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Anyway I wouldn't have minded the credit ("Life is too short...") until he threw in that the pages were falling out.

 

Well if he said the pages are falling out, that's a additional reason for him to RWAP.   If the book is RWAP-able for what kind of cover is a gray area, it is RWAP-able because if pages falling out.   Although the question still needs to be answered for future swaps....but if it has progressed to pages falling out, it's still a RWAP.



Last Edited on: 3/13/11 2:46 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 3/13/2011 2:57 PM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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We look our books over before we send because we do not feel like wasting $2.38 on a bad book. For little more than that we could buy a credit at the Kiosk. We do not believe that any pages were falling out.

Logically , if there were pages falling out, why didn't he use that as his initial RWAP instead of the more dubious " not a paperback."  He did not, in fact, have to bring up the paperback issue at all if, indeed, there were pages falling out.

But  he makes a big deal about not being a paperback and then throws in "loose pages" as an afterthought.

Is or is not it a paperback? That needs to be settled or anyone who receives a reinforced ex-library book will mark it RWAP-" not a paperback".

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 6:08 PM ET
Member Since: 5/15/2005
Posts: 1,328
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If you haven't already done so, the way to get a definite answer is to use the Contact Us link (under Company) at the bottom of the page and submit your question via feedback directly to TPTB.

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 7:48 PM ET
Member Since: 3/13/2009
Posts: 202
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The "Contact us+ gave ne this response:

"Dear Thomas,

The reinforced covers do change the binding type - either to "library
copy" or another term is "turtleback" - these are types of hardcovers.
Members who request paperbacks sometimes specifically want paperbacks for
good reasons (for example, softcovers are much easier for arthritic hands
to hold).  

If you have a book that was rebound in this way so that it is no longer a
softcover, you should ideally create a custom listing for it using the
"post a book without an ISBN" option, to avoid surprising the receiver.
If you post a library-rebound book using a listing that says "paperback"
you do risk a problem swap.

If the member's objection is not to the hardcover v. softcover issue but
to receiving an ex-library book, he or she should use Requestor Conditions
to specify this on requests.

We hope this information is helpful,

The PaperBackSwap Team
www.PaperBackSwap.com"

I have refunded the man one credit.

Date Posted: 3/13/2011 8:14 PM ET
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 30,800
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Thanks Thomas for updating and educating us!  I am glad we have a final word from the team on this.