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Subject: Question about 39 Clues book specifically
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:11 PM ET
Member Since: 5/24/2010
Posts: 214
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I received the first book of The 39 Clues in the mail today and it is definately RWAP because it has water damage on two inner pages. This is a WL book so I wouldn't care about that. When my son is done I could post it on the WL unpostables and it will probably go for a credit so I didn't intend to ask for the credit back - it's totally readable even with the water damage.

HOWEVER, this book is supposed to include 6 game cards inside and those are missing as well. I read these help documents

Books with accompanying media Materials: Yes IF the accompanying materials are included

  • A book with accompanying audiocassettes (for example) will earn 1 credit.
  • A book with accompanying cassettes or CDs is not an "audiobook".  An audiobook is a book read aloud by a narrator.
  • If the listing for the book indicates that the book comes with accompanying media materials (CD, VHS, cassette, DVD), all materials must be posted with the book.  If you do not have the accompanying materials, the book cannot be posted alone.
  • The accompanying media materials (without the book) also cannot be posted alone.

Books with Accompanying Non-Media Materials: NO

  • Non - MEDIA items cannot be sent by Media mail
  • Example: a book whose listing says that it requires a decoder for its proper use, or an accompanying deck of cards, or craft materials.  Such a book cannot be posted.
  • If the book listing indicates that the book comes with non-Media materials the book should not be posted

 

but I can't tell which of these apply, if either.

Any help is appreciated.

edited to add link to the book listing which offers no clues about the cards



Last Edited on: 7/14/10 2:26 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:15 PM ET
Member Since: 7/7/2007
Posts: 4,815
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Genna--

It is sort of a moot point, since you should mark it RWP due to the water damage.

If it requires cards, they're likely non-media and considered such under the "No non-media" rule. 

Cheers,

Catt

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:18 PM ET
Member Since: 1/23/2009
Posts: 3,041
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The cards would be considered non-media items, and therefore a book with the cards could not be posted here because it cannot be sent media mail. Do you actually *need* the cards to read the book? It sounds like they are just a fun extra type thing. In that case, the book could be posted without the cards and then it would be postable.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:19 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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This is a very confusing area, this is is how I handle these types of items:

First - The accompanying cards would be non-media (you can see that cards are mentioned in that part of the HC). If you hover over Accompanying Media in the HC you will get a pop-up that says permitted accompanying media would be DVDs, CDs, audio cassettes and VHS tapes. Then you would look at some other factors:

(1)Does the PBS listing state that the cards are included? YES - cannot be posted. NO - might still be postable if next question is No.

(2) Are the cards required to use the book? YES - cannot be posted. NO - still postable if answer to (1) is Yes.

 

eta: Looking at the link you provided, I do not see any cards mentioned. As long as those cards are not required to use the book, it was posted correctly and was swappable.



Last Edited on: 7/14/10 1:23 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:30 PM ET
Member Since: 5/24/2010
Posts: 214
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Ok, I appreciate all the help with this. This is the first book in the series so I was not sure if the cards were required for the book. According to a review I just found on Amazon the cards with the book are a marketing ploy to get moms and dads to buy additional packs of cards that are sold. I am hoping that guy is right because that would mean that my son will have a usable book, I can repost it in the unpostable WL thread and the sender actually did the correct thing in removing the cards since they are non-media.

 

Second question. When I clicked the book was RWAP I got an automated PBS message that said sorry for your trouble you are now first on the WL line. I don't want another copy of the book. It is not on automatic accept on my shelf either. What happens next? Sorry I guess I should head back to the help docs for the answer.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:41 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,664
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I disagree, the cards that you are talking about are "clue" cards for the story, right?

Those are media items.

In the help documents for non-media items, they are talking about a "deck of cards" .... like if you have a book about card tricks and it comes with a deck of playing cards ... those are clearly NON-media.

However, cards that are an intrinsic part of the book are MEDIA items. Like, if you have a book about teaching kids to read that includes flash cards ... those are MEDIA items.

At least, that is my understanding ....

Another example, a travel book that comes with a map ... the map must be present for the book to be PBS postable. Maps are media items.

Media does not only include CDs, DVDs, and cassettes.

I think that question should go straight to PBS so they can clarify their help docs.

As to your second question, just go to your Wish List and remove the book from it. PBS auto added you to back to the WL when you issued your RWAP, and you just need to go remove it if you don't want another copy.



Last Edited on: 7/14/10 1:48 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:41 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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You need to manually delete the book from your WL before it gets offered to you again.  Although I suppose if it's not on autorequest then you can just decline if it's offered again. But it would be a courtesy to the next person to post the book not to have to wait for you to come on and cancel it before it gets offered to the next person. 

You don't have to ask for a credit back.  Just mark it resolved if you get an apology from them.  This way it's on record with PBS and it'll help get rid of them if they have a habit of sending bad books.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 1:47 PM ET
Member Since: 5/24/2010
Posts: 214
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Thanks Mary, I have removed it from my Wish List so there will be no delay when the next copy comes available.

I did mark this issue resolved as I have already received an apology from the sender and I'm good where that part of it stands. I thank you for mentioning to mark the issue resolved. This was my first RWAP and I did not immediately see that option. I went back and found it and "case closed."

I guess I do still need a firm answer one way or the other about the cards. I may have to read the book myself to discover if I need them. Or maybe someone who is familiar with this particular book can answer.



Last Edited on: 7/14/10 1:47 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 2:03 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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I did not even find the ISBN you linked to on Amazon and only found 1 of the editions (a hardcover) there that included the cards and you can buy a lot of the cards separately, so they do not appear to be something required to use the book.

Sara - do have something that says the Help Center only applies to a deck playing cards? Because I have never seen that distinctions and would like to read it. Taro cards and trading cards are also non-media and can't be posted on PBS as far as I have found. The USPS defines cards as non-media and that is usually what PBS goes by. The Help Center also defines accompanying media materials as: "Permitted accompanying materials are: CDs, audiocassettes, VHS tapes and DVDs. ..." so I am not sure why you say cards become Media when they are included with a book when they are not included in any definition of media on the site.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 2:16 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,664
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The PBS help docs say ... "or an accompanying deck of cards" ... which usually refers to playing cards. Maybe I'm reading more into it than is there. But obviously playing cards, Tarot cards, trading cards, etc are not media.

I don't think I said that if they are included with a book they are automatically media ... I think it depends on what the cards are.

Are you saying that my example of educational flash cards that come with a book about learning to read are not media? My understanding is that they are, but I could be wrong, I guess.

Another example ... recipe cards that come with a cookbook. My understanding is that is also media.

I know that maps that come with books are media, as an example of things besides cassettes and CDs, etc that are defined as media.



Last Edited on: 7/14/10 2:21 PM ET - Total times edited: 3
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 2:29 PM ET
Member Since: 5/24/2010
Posts: 214
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Melanie, I went back and checked and this is what I found ... so the plot thickens even more.

This is the book listing that I had on my wish list.

This is the book that I have in my hands, minus the cards from the inside cover.

I just added every version to my wish list since I wanted the book and the first one is the wish that was granted ... but the second one is the book that was sent. *slaps forehead. This is too confusing.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 2:35 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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Are you saying that my example of educational flash cards that come with a book about learning to read are not media? Yes I would say that, except they might also fall under item g: "Printed educational reference charts designed to instruct or train individuals for improving or developing their capabilities" in the USPS definition of media mail, so they would be more grey area to me.

I consider maps to be part of the book since they are usually bound into the book and the HC also specifically addresses them elsewhere on whether or not they need to be included. I would probably assume the same on recipe cards unless I had the book in my hands. If it is just a recipe book kit with a pocket full of blank cards, then I would consider that required non-media (especially since even blank media is not eligible for MM)..

Sorry to hijack your post Genna. As I said in my first post, this is a confusing topic and I like to discuss where people are getting their information and how they are interpreting things so that maybe things could be made more clear.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 2:43 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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What a mess Genna! You got the wrong book and damaged. That member needs some posting guidance.

I would say that the Hard Cover could be posted without the cards. Setting aside the media/non-media issue, the PBS listing does not state they are included that I can see. I read quickly, but it just seems to talk about them, not say you get any, and it doesn't sound like they have anything to do with reading the book, they are just for playing online.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 2:45 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,664
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Genna,

were the cards attached to the book ... like a pre-perforated sheet that someone detached?

If so, I think they are clearly supposed to be included with the book, and it would also still qualify as media. Books could have lots of things bound into them ... craft books can have tear-out template pages, etc; cookbooks have tear-out recipe cards ... clearly all media.

It sounds like your sender posted their book to the wrong ISBN. if so, that is just an additional reason to RWAP the book. You may want to send a note to the sender letting them know that they did this wrong, too.

Melanie, yes, I agree that the help docs are not perfectly clear on this issue ... all cards are not the same (to me anyway) and I think that perhaps it could be clarified. Some people are reading it as all cards are not allowed and that allowable media only includes cassettes, CDs, etc, but I don't think that is necessarily true. Their examples of allowable media are not the only allowable media, and their examples of disallowed media is unclear. IMO.



Last Edited on: 7/14/10 2:48 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 7/14/2010 3:22 PM ET
Member Since: 6/16/2010
Posts: 433
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39 clues are available both with and without the cards.  The story is the same.  There will be 39 books, written by various children's authors. 

 

Scholastic came up with this gimmick just after the Harry Potter craze where they realized too late that the kids (and parents) were willing to purchase any & everything with the Harry Potter name on them.  39 clues is a book set, it's a card game, you used to be able to get backpacks & clothing with the logo on them. The plan was to manufacture the next Harry Potter like craze...Unfortunately, they are not the craze they hoped.

The hardcovers that have the cards have them inside a little pocket in the front cover.  The paperbacks do not have the cards at all.  You can also buy many, many, MANY more packs of cards to play the online game and/or play the card game with your friends.

 

 

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 4:09 PM ET
Member Since: 10/13/2007
Posts: 36,445
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As what Cindi says. The cards are NOT needed to read the books. it is something totally seperate that they do online to work out  the ending when ALL the books are published.
 

The library editions do not come with the cards and are hardcovers. They are not needed media for the item so it does not need to be RWAP for that issue. 

The water damage does make it unpostable.

Date Posted: 7/14/2010 4:16 PM ET
Member Since: 5/24/2010
Posts: 214
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Thanks Cindi and xengab. I guess it is good to know that my son can read the book without the cards. When I post on the unpostables WL thread I will know to mention the cards aren't included.



Last Edited on: 7/18/10 6:27 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 7/18/2010 12:01 AM ET
Member Since: 6/21/2009
Posts: 15
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I had the same issue with the cards for this title a while ago. The book was not damaged as yours was. IIRC, when I asked the consensus was that it was unpostable without the cards. When I contacted the sender she stated she had received it from PBS without the cards. I ended up deciding to take the book to the UBS because I thought it was unpostable. I do wish the rules were clearer on this one but understand that you cannot write rules for every situation.

Date Posted: 7/18/2010 6:29 AM ET
Member Since: 5/24/2010
Posts: 214
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Well it sounds like they are ciculating through the system without the cards then, Katrina. DId you or your child read it without the cards ok? My own son brought home 4 books from his trip and doesn't want to read 39 Clues right now.

Date Posted: 7/18/2010 10:42 PM ET
Member Since: 6/21/2009
Posts: 15
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My son read it and enjoyed it. As I am still pretty new to the site I didn't want to post a possibly unpostable book so I took it the UBS. It seems like people are still some what divided on if it is or isn't postable.  In the long run it wasn't a big issue, it was just my first (and only)bump in the road here.