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Topic: Question re: abridged/unabridged in audiobook titles - TPTB answer

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Subject: Question re: abridged/unabridged in audiobook titles - TPTB answer
Date Posted: 1/30/2014 10:01 PM ET
Member Since: 4/6/2007
Posts: 1,404
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The book in question is: Sycamore Row (Audio CD) (Unabridged) :: John Grisham, Michael Beck (Narrator)
ISBN-13: 9780385366458 - ISBN-10: 0385366450

As you can see in the listing is says unabridged.  I had this on my WL and thought I would be getting unabridged but what I got is the abridged version.  The ISBN on the box matches the ISBN from the listing - that's not in question.  What I am questioning is if (Unabridged) in the title on the PBS listing counts as part of the book title that, according to the posting guidelines,  must match when an audiobook is posted by the sender.  When we post books we are confirming that title, author, ISBN and book type match exactly.   On the one hand, the title of the book is Sycamore Row, on the other hand, the title as listed on PBS is Sycamore Row (Audio CD) (Unabridged) and, clearly, this is not the unabridged version.  And, no, the abridged and unabridged versions do not share the same ISBN - I have now checked on Amazon and they are two separate ISBNs.  My bad for not checking when I added them to my WL - I should not have trusted the PBS listing - hindsight is always 20/20.  So, do I have any recourse in this case?  I'm guessing the answer is going to be No, but wanted to ask people who know the rules better than I.  At the very least I will be submitting a data edit to ask that it be correctly identified as the abridged version before I repost it.



Last Edited on: 1/31/14 11:37 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 1/31/2014 12:34 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2010
Posts: 8,395
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Sorry, I'd normally research this myself but just do not have time now.  First, you can't necessarily trust what you see on Amazon.  I have found plenty wrong on there.  Second, research through www.worldcat.org to see if your research about shared ISBNs holds up.  Third, do a google search on the ISBNs to see if everywhere shows what you said on abridged/unabridged.  Personally, if what you said is correct, I'd contact TPTB about whether this should be a RWAP or not.  My first instinct is that it should be, as they shouldn't be posting an abridged version to a title that shows unabridged.  That's just a gut feeling though, and I would want confirmation that I was correct.  I'd love to know what you find out, so please update us!

edited for typo & to correct link - OOPS!



Last Edited on: 1/31/14 4:06 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 1/31/2014 12:48 AM ET
Member Since: 7/19/2008
Posts: 15,441
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As the two titles have separate ISBNs, then submit a data edit with the source for that info.   Make it easy on the data volunteers if you have already done the research.

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 1:51 AM ET
Member Since: 8/6/2006
Posts: 596
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The title does not match, I would mark it received with a problem and ask for my credits back so an unabridged version could be ordered.

 

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 2:32 AM ET
Member Since: 8/26/2006
Posts: 9,336
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What I am questioning is if (Unabridged) in the title on the PBS listing counts as part of the book title

My understanding is that yes, it counts as part of the title.

It's possible that a publisher has published two audiobooks with the same ISBN, one abridged, one not.  The solution in that case for the person posting the book is to post his book without an ISBN.

It's possible that our listing here is wrong.  The solution in that case it to either submit an edit (with evidence) to try to get the listing changed as mentioned above, or to post the book without an ISBN.

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 6:51 AM ET
Member Since: 4/6/2007
Posts: 1,404
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Sasssy's link takes me to a yacht manufacturer-can anyone provide the correct link? I'm not in the market for a yacht right now - wink   Seriously, I've seen "worldcat" mentioned in these forums before but I'm not really sure what it is or how to use it.  If someone is willing to tutor me, I would be willing to try to figure this out.  I won't be able to check back in until sometime this evening.  Thanks in advance.

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 7:54 AM ET
Member Since: 4/28/2009
Posts: 9,657
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I know several members here who have an RC stating that for audiobooks they only want the unabridged version.  That seems to be a red flag that others may have experienced this same problem frequently enough that they chose to prevent the issue in the future by adding an RC.

Cathy A. (Cathy) - ,
Date Posted: 1/31/2014 8:18 AM ET
Member Since: 12/27/2005
Posts: 4,135
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Tibben -- it's worldcat.org, not worldcat.com.

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 4:14 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2010
Posts: 8,395
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LOL.  Oops!  Sorry about that.  Corrected the link above.  Worldcat is a good resource for really checking things out well.  It's something that most of the data edit team uses.  I do a lot of edits, although I'm not a member of the team.  The team has helped me learn a lot.  I'm not sure how to explain Worldcat, except that it's sort of like a giant library catalog and can even tell you what libraries have the book you're searching for.  My library's catalog often doesn't give all of the information about the edition, abridged or unabridged, etc., where Worldcat usually has all of the details.

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 4:35 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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I would recommend sending in Feedback to ask the site for their word on the issue. My opinion would be that the title did not match EXACTLY so the poster could not use the ISBN listing - even if everything else was correct and the PBS listing was actually wrong. They are supposed to submit a data edit, with proof that the ISBN was not ever published as an unabridged title, and get it changed before they can post to the ISBN. That is the information I will give senders when that ask. But the PBSTeam also does hold requesters to knowing what they are asking for (and if what they are asking for does not exist), so they may have something different to say since it is really the same book inside and can be reposted to recoup the credits. Send in Feedback and see what they have to say.

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 6:39 PM ET
Member Since: 4/6/2007
Posts: 1,404
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Ok, here is what I think I know:  the ISBN in question is relevant only to the abridged version.  Everywhere that I have found it, it has been identified only as an abridged version of this audiobook - Worldcat, Amazon, B&N, alibris, The Book Depository, just to name a few.  I think that means the PBS listing is wrong/misleading. And that means that 47 other people who currently have this ISBN wishlisted may also be disappointed when their wish is granted and they get the abridged version as well.  That's one issue, but the real issue still remains:  What is considered "the title" that must match exactly and what is considered "descriptive" and not actually "the title."  I can sit here and argue with myself and make a case for both sides of the issue.  That doesn't help me though.  I think Melanie's suggestion that I need to contact TPTB and ask them to weigh in on this with a decision is what I will need to do.  My initial inclination was the same as many of the TG's that responded here - that it is part of the title and it doesn't match; therefore, the book was not posted correctly.  But what if that's wrong and I cause the sender a bunch of grief she doesn't deserve?  I will ask the Team and report back if/when they respond.  Thanks all!
 

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 11:48 PM ET
Member Since: 4/6/2007
Posts: 1,404
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The Team sent me an answer and they agree with the general consensus here:  The book is RWAP as the Unabridged in the PBS listing title is part of what must match exactly when posting a book.  Here's what they said:

We're sorry you had a disappointing swap. We agree with the Tour Guides - the "Unabridged" is part of the title and needs to be heeded when posting (just like "Large Print" in the title needs to be heeded when posting).

We agree with the statement: "She should have posted without an ISBN or requested a data edit".

We checked, and this listing was edited by a volunteer on 11/04/2013 at 3:46 PM ET - and the edit was approved on 11/5/2013 at 8:19 AM ET.  This copy was posted on 1/26/14 11:33 AM ET, well after the edit. So this sender saw the "Unabridged" in the title when she posted the listing.

Now I have a few more questions for anyone who is on the data editing team if you will venture an answer here.  Do I submit a data edit once I have this resolved with the sender?  Based on the info available, will it likely be changed to Abridged?  Something must have been compelling for it to be edited to Unabridged in November but I certainly couldn't find anything that that showed this ISBN as unabridged.   Finally, if it is going to be changed, that shouldn't happen until after I resolve this with the sender, right? -because once it's changed there wouldn't be any "proof" to the sender that it ever said Unabridged, right?

Date Posted: 1/31/2014 11:53 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,852
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I dont know that "unabridged" is part of the title.  Its describing the book contents. Just like when the series title is part of the listing. The series name is only printed on books maybe 30% of the time. Its extra information which describes the book, not part of the title. But as far as the problem, i can see a case either way, i do think that people are responsible for knowing what they are ordering, on the other hand, i wouldnt have posted the book to that listing, even if i dont think that "unabridged" is technicaly part of the title. I posted after TPTB answer got posted. I still dont think "title matching" is the rule to hang a hat on here, because its not actually part of the title of the book, but if TBTB say that extra info in the title in the PBs listing  also has to match, then I'll go with it.



Last Edited on: 2/1/14 12:02 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 2/1/2014 2:49 AM ET
Member Since: 8/20/2007
Posts: 1,020
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My, this is a thorny one, isn't it? But not too difficult to sort out.

Since "Unabridged" shows in the title, the sender should not have have posted the book using its ISBN because it did not match the descriptive title. Then after the fact, the book should not have been sent because the descriptive title says it is unabridged. So this is an RWAP.  According to  the history provided by TPTB regarding the data edit and posting dates, the book should not have been posted using the ISBN since the title listed for the ISBN did not match exactly.

Technically, descriptive words such as "abridged" or "unabridged" are not part of the actual book title. However, given that descriptive information sometimes does show up in book titles, members need to comply with the rule that titles must match exactly. If the descriptive title says a book is unabridged  then it can only be posted that way.

When posting, the poster agrees that their book matches the title displayed by PBS. If it does not, then member must either post the book without an ISBN or submit a data edit and wait until it is approved before posting it with the ISBN.



Last Edited on: 2/5/14 4:13 AM ET - Total times edited: 3
Date Posted: 2/3/2014 9:53 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2010
Posts: 8,395
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Now I have a few more questions for anyone who is on the data editing team if you will venture an answer here.  Do I submit a data edit once I have this resolved with the sender?  Based on the info available, will it likely be changed to Abridged?  Something must have been compelling for it to be edited to Unabridged in November but I certainly couldn't find anything that that showed this ISBN as unabridged.   Finally, if it is going to be changed, that shouldn't happen until after I resolve this with the sender, right? -because once it's changed there wouldn't be any "proof" to the sender that it ever said Unabridged, right?

Tibben, as I stated before, I am NOT a member of the data editing team but have much experience doing data edits and interacting with data edit team members.  Some have noticed my being a bit of a perfectionist in trying to understand and get things just right, and so they have taken extra time to really explain things and teach me a lot along the way.  This is my opinion: 

You should submit a data edit once you have discussed the problem with the sender.  I would want the sender to see what's there prior to submitting the edit, but the issue doesn't necessarily need to be resolved.  Some issues with senders are never resolved.  Based on the information you gave, the listing is likely to be changed to abridged.  Not everyone is as thorough as others, so it is possible that the data edit team member changed the listing to unabridged on someone's word.  I would be willing to bet the team has discussed it with them after reading your message to them.

Date Posted: 2/3/2014 10:15 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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I still dont think "title matching" is the rule to hang a hat on here, because its not actually part of the title of the book, but if TBTB say that extra info in the title in the PBs listing  also has to match, then I'll go with it.

Actually, it is part of the "title" on audio books. Abridged, or Unabridged, is just like the edition number on a textbook. If you have Edition XII and the PBS Title field says the ISBN is for Edition XV you cannot post to the ISBN. If the title field gives no indication of an edition, then all can be posted to it but if it specifies one, then the ISBN is reserved for that one edition. That is why the posting warning says in bright read that it has to match EXACTLY. Things like Large Print are also put in the Title field to point out to members the *edition*.

Date Posted: 2/3/2014 11:27 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,852
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Melanie, my point is that all kinds of stuff gets put into the title field, and much of it is not the title of the book. Does the series name have to match exactly? The series name often isnt even printed on the book, but we add it to the title of the listing nevertheless. So saying it has to match exactly is fine, however, in real life the "title" in the PBS listing field and the title of the book hardly ever match EXACTLY. Now, having an edition number in the title would probably make most people stop to check their book before they posted it, which is the right thing to do, but saying that the title has to match exactly is not a clear way to state or describe that rule to people, because the edition is not the title and neither is the words large print, even if we put them in the title field in PBS for lack of a better field to use. It would be clearer if PBS said that the title must match, and if edition information appears in the title of the listing, it must match also.

Date Posted: 2/5/2014 2:03 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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Does the series name have to match exactly? The series name often isnt even printed on the book, but we add it to the title of the listing nevertheless. So saying it has to match exactly is fine, however, in real life the "title" in the PBS listing field and the title of the book hardly ever match EXACTLY. 

That is why minor differences are allowed per the rules. Series information wrong = minor difference (it doesn't affect the book content in any manner whatsoever). Edition information wrong (abridged/unabridged, large print/not large print, XV edition vs IV edition) = all of them affect the book content so I can't see how anyone would see them as a minor difference and acceptable. When someone actually looks at the rules, it doesn't seem that hard to me.

Confirm that your book matches the information in the Book Listing Preview

  • You will see the text below the Book Listing Preview:

    This is how your book listing will appear in the PBS library.

    Do the Title, Author, ISBN and Book Type match your book EXACTLY?

    Please note: book cover image shown does NOT need to match your book.

  • If all of the information (ISBN, title, author, booktype) on the Book Listing Preview matches your book EXACTLY click  .   Do not click Refresh on your browser while the button reads "Processing..."  Doing this may cause the book to be Posted twice.

  • If your book does NOT match the information in the Book Listing Preview:

    • If it is a minor difference, such as a misspelled title or the wrong author first name, you can post the book and submit corrections afterward using the Edit Book Data link.
    • If the booktype is different (if your book is a paperback, and the Preview shows hardcover, for example):
      • You will need to post the book without an ISBN
    • If the book title says "(Large Print)" and your book is regular-size font:
      • You will need to post the book without an ISBN


 

Date Posted: 2/5/2014 2:04 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
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Veeerry Interesting...

Date Posted: 2/5/2014 8:01 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,852
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Well, yes, that's exactly my point, there is actually a tolerance for things not matching exactly. We've all been trained to ignore the differences that we believe are minor, like whether the series information is correct, or if the book has a subtitle or not.

Although most people might stop and question if they should post the book if there is edition info in the title that they don't see on the book, obviously not everyone does.

And that's why PBS should clarify the rule even better.