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Topic: Redemption - The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in A

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Subject: Redemption - The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in A
Date Posted: 4/6/2008 4:40 PM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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Has anyone read this book.  The author is Nathan Winograd.  Anyone who loves  animals should read it, particularly if you work in or run a shelter.  I highly recommend it!

Date Posted: 4/9/2008 10:08 PM ET
Member Since: 3/31/2008
Posts: 68
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I work with a couple breed-specific rescues - this book is now on my wish list - thanks for the suggestions!

*Amber*

Date Posted: 4/12/2008 10:34 AM ET
Member Since: 8/27/2005
Posts: 4,122
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I've not heard of this book, but would take exception to anything that implies that pet overpopulation is a myth.  I've worked in shelters for 30 years and believe me, there's a pet overpopulation problem!

Date Posted: 4/12/2008 2:41 PM ET
Member Since: 5/7/2006
Posts: 5,295
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It sounds interesting.

Date Posted: 4/13/2008 5:16 AM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2005
Posts: 571
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I read it, and while I thought Winograd had some useful ideas, the book totally and utterly turned me off. His tone, I guess. The constant attacking of shelter workers. It made me angry, and not in the ways that he intended.

And even having read his entire book, I still cannot buy that there is not a pet overpopulation issue. There may be "shortages" of some types of dogs- small breed dogs are often snapped up almost immediately after hitting the shelters- but no overpopulation of adolescent pit bulls and lab mixes? You've got to be kidding me.

Date Posted: 4/15/2008 10:07 AM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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I don't feel like he's attacking shelter workers as much as the people who run them and refuse to even attempt to do things differently.  It appears as though many people who run these shelters would rather kill the animals than try something that has been proven to work.  Why fight something that can save SO many animals?  I think it's completely unacceptable to kill perfectly healthy pets when there are other options out there that so many shelters refuse to put in place.

As far as pet overpopulation - I think his point is that although there are a lot of pets in a lot of shelters, there aren't so many that they need to be killed.  As I said above, there are other options.



Last Edited on: 4/15/08 10:09 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Subject: If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I to go where they did~ W
Date Posted: 4/16/2008 9:41 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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I have not read the book either.. I do firmly believe that there is a pet over population. I  am a firm believer in Bob Barker "Please have your pet spayed ot neutered" . I have had some accidental dog pregnancies.  Out of a litter of 14 ~ only 1 is still alive after 4 years. I see so many strays & they look so sad. They want & need love. Plain & simple FACT: SOME PEOPLE DONT CARE! They ignore the dogs, often they go 3 days even longer with no food & water. What kind of life is that for a dog? Put them on chains???

 Part  of responsible pet ownership is: playing with your pet , loving it, touching it. Letting it love you back.

 I know most all of us in this disscussion board are responsible pet owners. But we are the minority.

 I live in a very very small rural town . There is a pack, yes a PACK of strays, just trying to stay alive. My husband has a farm. People bring unwanted animals out there and DUMP them. ALL THE TIME!!!!

 I have no interest in this book. Because , maybe where the author is from, there may not be a big problem. But, in rural SW Oklahoma THERE IS!

 ~Peace~

 Shanna

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 1:00 PM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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People are missing the point.  Do people mistreat their animals?  Unfortunately, the answer is yes.  There needs to be more education and affordable spay/neuter programs.  But shelters stop becoming shelters when they kill more animals than they save.  That's the point.  Especially when it doesn't need to be that way and it doesn't necessarily cost more to change it.  It's just a different mind-set.  Certain changes need to be made, and programs put in place in order for the killing to stop.  That's the point of the book.

Subject: If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I to go where they did~ W
Date Posted: 4/16/2008 1:24 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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I am sorry, Julie,

 We cannot take on all the unloved & mis treated pets in the world & we cannot force irresponsible people to feed/water/love/ & watch their animals.

 I take in pit bulls. I have a pair. One male (neutered)~ I had to literrally save Coins to get it done, but I had it done. Yes, there should be affordable services , but there are not.

 Someone above mentioned pit bulls & Labs, that person is right. People adopt the smaller dogs & leave the so called (Questionable) breeds to die.

 I have seen some in peoples yards chained , just out of reach of the water bowl, for days at a time.

 To me, some of these dogs would have a better life by not living the way they are and unfortunatly, the dogs killed are usually these breeds.

 For instance, it is always above 100 degrees in ok/tx June-Oct. It would be like a person out in the desert looking for the oasis that will not come. I think if I was out in the desert , could not find water, I would rather be dead.

 Who adopts these pit bulls, rottweilers, labs, dobermans???? Mostly the sort of people I would not trust a poodle with.

So , the poor animals are back in the same situation they got out of, ???? Noone with children wants a pit bull. Old people cannot handle a pit bull . Or any large type breed.

 They are basically pretty much not adoptable.

 There are people like me. Only 1 that I know of besides me in the entire state of OKLAHOMA , who will adopt a pit bull & find it a new home.

 Do I feed the animals dumped at my farm , cats included??? No. I cannot afford to. Most people out in the country just get so MAD! The people doing the dumping think the farmers will feed their unwanted pet, when in all actuality , we don't.

 They go to sleep feeling better at the thought that one of us are caring for their pet. Most of these are taken to the pound the next day . Hopefully, they won't get one of our dogs pg. So , it is not really safe to let ours run down the 140 acres???? Because yes, my male is neutered. But is the idiot's ??? (Idiots being the latest person to dump their dog).

 The fact of the matter is. There are not enough responsible people (for large "questionable" breeds) to feed and care for all of them.

 If they were killing poodles, jack russells, little dogs, I would raise my eyes. But this is all that can be done & usually for the best if the animal has lived in some of the conditions I have seen.

 My argument is not for cats or small dogs.

 It is for the so called unadoptables.

 Sorry Julie , but are you going to adopt every pit bull that needs a home? I myself like the breed & have never ever been bitten or attacked and have actually placed a couple in a home with children and they LOVE the kids. The media has hyped them up so bad, that noone wants one. But I cant adopt them all! And only 1 other safe haven in the state????

 That is all I have to say.

 ~Peace~

 Shanna

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 1:38 PM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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If you read the book you'd know there are alternatives.  It has been done.  People just want to place blame on someone else instead of doing something about it.  If you think it's okay for shelters to KILL healthy dogs and cats because there is no other way, then nothin I, or anyone else has to say, is going to change your mind.  I happen to believe that there is an alternative because what Nathan says makes sense, it's been done, and IT HAS WORKED!  Period.  Thank God people don't think about children what they think about animals or we'd be 'euthanizing' them as well.

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 1:50 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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Julie,

 I stand on my previous post. I wish things were different, but they are not. If a book can get someone so upset , I don't care to read it. I know what I know. What I have seen. I can't afford to feed every dog in the world. Again, there should be affordable services, but until then, NOBODY can feed , house, love & shelter every single one of them. Do Vets have all the $ in the world???? No. The U.S.A. cannot feed hungry children , much less animals. And euthanizing children is a little drastic of an example. And some of us cannot even get any decent health insurance for children , much less a dog.

 Yes, my old dog recently died, and she was like a child to me and I miss her every day & cry myself to sleep because she is not there with me,  but she was NOT a child. I have two grown kids. That comparison is not even rational.

 I am not reading the book.

 Sorry if I hit your nerve, but it's the truth in Oklahoma, a fact. Louisiana , Texas, all these states where illegal dog fighting is rampant.

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 1:54 PM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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You haven't hit a nerve and the book hasn't upset me at all.  I, nor does anyone else, expect you to feed "every dog in the world".  I'm not going to continue to argue with someone who hasn't even read the book.  If you don't want to read it then you shouldn't.  But don't assume to know what your talking about if you don't have all the facts.

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 2:00 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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Unfortunatly, I do know what I am talking about. Tell me, please? Who is going to adopt the pit bulls? It is very hard to find a grown pit bull a home. Puppies, yeah. Grown, No. So, since you have read the book, I assume you know what to do with the questionable breeds?

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 2:10 PM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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Read the book.  If you really don't want to read the book then you can check out these links:

http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default

http://www.nokilladvocacycenter.org/reforming-animal-control.html

http://www.nathanwinograd.com/

I honestly don't know how someone who loves animals can be against NOT killing them.  And there is a section in one of those links specifically about pit bulls.  Actually, here it is : http://www.nokilladvocacycenter.org/pdf/PitBulls.pdf



Last Edited on: 4/16/08 2:11 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 4/16/2008 2:18 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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Then you have not seen some of the dogs that I have seen. Blind, ears missing, legs bitten off. All from illegal dog fighting. Chains a foot (some less) long. I am NOT for euthanizing them, you have misunderstood me. I am FOR educating people on the pit bull breed, because, they have been miseducated by the media. So, if that could be done, more people would ONCE AGAIN at least not fear / hate/ dislike them. So that they could be adopted & NOT euthanized. I will click your links & take a look.

 But you have misunderstood me entirely. We cannot re educate people on breed specifics (the ones that are being mass euthanized), if the media keeps up their campaign against them. You are more likly to die in a car wreck than get mauled by a pit bull. People don't know this. All they know is what they have seen on tv or their morning paper.

 But until we can re educate people, what do we do?

Date Posted: 4/16/2008 3:04 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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link was great. just what i said in my last post. Thanks & Peace~Shanna

Date Posted: 4/18/2008 8:30 PM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2005
Posts: 571
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Shanna, it's worthwhile reading the book, I think, even if you don't agree. It definitely gets you thinking and re-evaluating your own beliefs. Or at least it did for me.

I would rather see pit bulls killed than warehouse or placed in homes where they will not be kept safe.

Date Posted: 4/20/2008 9:35 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2008
Posts: 77
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Katie,

 I agree. But as for reading the book, it will only make me sad.

Date Posted: 5/23/2008 9:34 AM ET
Member Since: 2/13/2008
Posts: 253
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So what is the alternative?  

Date Posted: 5/23/2008 10:08 AM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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Alternative to what?

http://www.nokilladvocacycenter.org/

Date Posted: 7/10/2008 11:04 PM ET
Member Since: 5/7/2008
Posts: 18
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Never heard of it, altho it sounds like something that may get me frustrated.  I work in an animal shelter, and while I'm happy to say we haven't euthanized an adoptable dog in over 2 years, I can definitely say there is a pet overpopulaton.  Cats more so.  It also doesn't help that much fewer cats are reclaimed or adopted than dogs, and many more cats come into the shelter than dogs.  I wish I only needed to use euthanasia as a way of relieving untreatable suffering, but that's not the reality.  The most frustrating thing is knowing how easy it is to spay/neuter, and how few animals who come in to the shelter that are. 

I've had to euthanize kittens: too many, too sick, no foster homes, too young to wean but w/o mothers, too young to adopt out but became too sick while waiting to be old enough... And not to mention the feral cats - adults & kittens alike; they are not socialized, fearful/aggressive, sick, scarred, carrying/suffering from FelV, FIV, heartworm, fleas so bad they're anemic, ear mites so bad they've scracted they're ears open, shot at, hit by cars... 

But there is a light. Microchipping, improving responsible pet ownership, collars & tags on cats and dogs at all times, education, school visits, rescues, community organizations, low-income help, computers, internet, etc. have all done wonders on denting pet overpopulation. Every stray that gets reclaimed and ever pet that gets adopted can balance out 10 sad stories.  This is a very sensitive topic, and people often feel strongly one way or another.



Last Edited on: 7/10/08 11:06 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/11/2008 6:30 AM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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I think that until a person actually reads the book they can't really comment on it.  People are making comments based on the title.  I wish he hadn't added the part about the Myth of Pet Overpopulation.   I highly recommend actually reading the book.

L. G. (L)
Date Posted: 7/15/2008 4:16 AM ET
Member Since: 9/5/2005
Posts: 12,412
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The problem is, Julie,  you're advocating alternatives but not saying what they are.  You keep telling us that euthanasia isn't the answer, but what is?  I'm listening.

The suggestions put forth in the "no kill" link you supplied aren't anything different than the Humane Societies all over the US (most of which are kill shelters) already use.  The truth is, "no kill shelter" is an oxymoron; they kill by turning animals away.  Many others skim the most adoptable from the pounds and let the others die.  Others don't take surrenders from the public, but are an outlet for a subset of private animal "rescuers" they work with.  They kill by omission.

The true "no kill shelters" that accept every animal, no matter the condition or circumstance often are nothing more than warehouses or hoarders; the quality of life for the animals is poor.   In fact, in....16 years, I've never seen one that wasn't.   No thanks.  I'd rather see an animal killed than live its life in a cage without a family.

Yes, we can do things better than we do them now.  But I don't see hundreds of thousands of dollars flowing into local shelters for support of homeless animals, nor do I see hundreds of thousands of people stepping up to the plate to do foster care, or to adopt these unwanted animals.  Unless someone is going to magically create families willing to adopt the animals killed, it's simply not going to happen.

 

 

 



Last Edited on: 7/15/08 4:33 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 7/15/2008 6:22 AM ET
Member Since: 11/3/2005
Posts: 22
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Again, if you don't read the book then that is what you are going to think.  It's obvious to me that you haven't read the book.  I am NOT against euthanasia.  What I am against is killing healthy animals.  I am not for no kill and turning animals away.  Yes, it can be done (without hoarding), and it has.  I'm not going to get into a debate.  This thread is about the book.  What I asked in the title is 'Did anyone read the book?'.  Not, would anyone like to debate about a book you haven't even read.  Read the book and I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

Subject: Educational
Date Posted: 7/15/2008 4:09 PM ET
Member Since: 6/29/2008
Posts: 2
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This book is a MUST READ for anyone who loves animals, or runs a shelter/animal charity.  No-kill is certainly possible, but we must all work together to achieve this by educating others about the importance of spaying/neutering (it should be a law).

There is a lot of informative information in 'Redemption', and I highly recommend it.  Nathan Winograd should be THE leader in the animal rights movement!

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