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Topic: I still don't get the cleaved/spine seperation thing.

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Subject: I still don't get the cleaved/spine seperation thing.
Date Posted: 8/19/2008 10:24 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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So I had about 20 WL offers in the last 2 wks. Yay me, except half of them I wouldn't have posted.  They look great.  No tears, no stains, no real wear to them. But a bunch of them have what I though was "cleaved" or damaged spines.  So I don't know if I'm not getting the difference between a book opening to a certain page or an actual unpostable/seperating book. They don't have loose pages.  I can't see the glue or spine-although I probably could if opened them wider and damaged them even more.  But they have basically snapped spines in more than one place on some of them.  The only reason I didn't mark them RWP is because they seem borderline to me.  Also I didn't want to look too picky marking 10+ books RWP basically in a few days.  Because I got I think 5 in one day last week.  I can read them and enjoy them.  But I'm afraid to repost them here.  I can post them on another site but I'd rather post them here.  Most of them are still WL. I don't want to have to offer them all as freebies with an order from my shelf.  I have few books posted anyway.

So am I misunderstanding what "cleaving" or "seperation" is or am I right that these probably shouldn't have bene posted?

 



Last Edited on: 8/19/08 11:12 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/19/2008 10:36 AM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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Seperation I think is when the spine is seperated from the cover.

Cleaved - 

1. to split or divide by or as if by a cutting blow, esp. along a natural line of division, as the grain of wood.
2. to make by or as if by cutting: to cleave a path through the wilderness.
3. to penetrate or pass through (air, water, etc.): The bow of the boat cleaved the water cleanly.
4. to cut off; sever: to cleave a branch from a tree.
–verb (used without object)
5. to part or split, esp. along a natural line of division.
6. to penetrate or advance by or as if by cutting (usually fol. by through).

You can definatly tell if a spine is damaged because that's when the pages will start to fall out. Sometimes I think people mistake worn or creased spines as being seperated or cleaved.

 



Last Edited on: 8/19/08 10:36 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/19/2008 11:15 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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So if the spine has actually snapped and the book opens to that page easily but the spine or glue isn't showing than it's still postable?  I've never had a book open to a specific page where it hadn't snapped there.  What about books where the glue can be seen on the covers? You know where you open either cover and see the glue there but it's still firmly attached?  Many new books are like this.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 11:30 AM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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It states in the rules if it opens to a certain page that it's ok. I'd suggest reading the rules, seeing if it complies to them & then making your decision.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 11:35 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I have read the rules many times and I still don't get if these are "cleaved" or just opening to a certain page.  I just don't want to post all these here as WL books and get a bunch of complaints against me when it's the way I received them here.  I don't see the pages coming loose or the spine but the spine is definately snapped.  Argh. I hate the cheap way they make books now that they snap after one reading no matter how careful you are.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 12:25 PM ET
Member Since: 1/31/2006
Posts: 1,402
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They don't have loose pages.  I can't see the glue or spine-although I probably could if opened them wider and damaged them even more.  But they have basically snapped spines in more than one place on some of them. 

What about books where the glue can be seen on the covers? You know where you open either cover and see the glue there but it's still firmly attached? 

They are all postable.  If you can't see glue or spine between pages then they aren't cleaved.  Sure you could open them wider and damage them.  My mother cleaved a brand-new-just-home-from-the-bookstore PB cracking it open.  (A pet peeve of mine BTW, Why must people crack the spine to hold the book?) And many mass-market PBs come with glue showing out the sides and ends.  (Mass-markets average $8 new and the are more cheaply manufactured than ever.)

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 12:35 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I was wondering if they were because I receive so many. I've always just erred on the side of not and reposted them elsewhere. But I've used a lot of credits here lately and I hate to post PBS WL books somewhere else.  I'm just afraid of ruining my no RWP streak with the books I've sent out and getting guilted into giving a credit back for a book that I think is in good condition.

 

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 12:41 PM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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My mother cleaved a brand-new-just-home-from-the-bookstore PB cracking it open.  (A pet peeve of mine BTW, Why must people crack the spine to hold the book?)

 

I have since stopped letting my mom read my books after I'm done with them for that reason. I like my book to look like new after I finish them & she makes them look like crap after only the second read of the book.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 12:53 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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I've noticed that my newer books seem to be bound completely differently from my older ones. With the older ones, the pages are actually attached to each other because of the wet glue/adhesives used. But it looks like my newer ones just adhere the pages directly to the spine with little (if any) attachment of pages to each other. So if you open the book to a particular page, it will open all the way to the cover. But it's obvious that the spine is still intact, the pages are securely fastened and that the binding is not failing.

I think this is one of those cases where we all just have to use a bit of common sense. Is the binding still secure, or is it weak and failing? If it's the former, it's postable (cracked, IMO); if the latter, not postable (failing).

Granted, a cracked book will probably fail along the crack at some point, but just having a crack won't make it unpostable unless I see signs that it's actually failing (pages coming loose, spine weakened and starting to break).

Note, I say all this with regard to PPB's. I think it's pretty easy to tell when a HB binding is failing.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 1:06 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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Well I mentioned in another thread that these were mostly erotic WL books and someone has actually PM me and said I can post them directly to her.  I'll probably send a freebie with the ones I post right to her.  To me they're still good books that's why I didn't mark them RWP. I just don't know if the next person will feel the same way.



Last Edited on: 8/19/08 1:06 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/19/2008 2:48 PM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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As long as they comply with the rules they can't.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 3:02 PM ET
Member Since: 9/18/2007
Posts: 2,498
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Ok right now I'm holding a book that may or may not be cleaved. It opens to a certain area, you can see glue and spine from the inside. But I'm twisting, turning, and tugging on the pages and they aren't loose at all. I held it open and twisted the spine and everything is still intacked.  From the outside you can see normal wear and tear creases but noting deep on the spine. Would this book be postable?

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 3:04 PM ET
Member Since: 5/14/2007
Posts: 881
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I'd say so.

Sianeka - ,
Date Posted: 8/19/2008 3:51 PM ET
Member Since: 2/8/2007
Posts: 6,630
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I'd say that is definitely a gray area book.  While I wouldn't have a problem with receiving such a book, I know of other members who believe that if you can see the spine at all, it isn't postable.  The books discussed above with broken/cracked spine but no spine/glue visible from the inside are considered postable.  To me, it's an issue of how well the book is going to stay intact, with no pages tempted to go their own way. 

But many members define postable/unpostable by taking Help Center words absolutely literally.  Because the Help Center specifically defines unpostables as showing spine, I'd err on the side of caution and say that Heather's book would be considered unpostable by many members.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 4:00 PM ET
Member Since: 8/1/2007
Posts: 5,034
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If I could see the spine, I wouldn't post it.  If it just opened to a particular page, but no spine was showing, I would post it.

Sandra (dru) -
Date Posted: 8/19/2008 4:49 PM ET
Member Since: 1/20/2006
Posts: 508
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Heather, in your case that is not a gray area, the book is unpostable.  The binding Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book. The pages do not have to be loose to make the book unpostable.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 5:18 PM ET
Member Since: 5/14/2007
Posts: 881
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Sandra, not necessarily!

If the book is firmly intact yet the inside of the spine is visible it could be do to a different technique of binding. I have been seeing it frequently in the trade sized paperbacks. The pages are glued to the spine and not each other (and not sewn together) so there are spaces on occasion.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 5:36 PM ET
Member Since: 12/22/2007
Posts: 589
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Even after reading the rules and seeing all these posts about what makes a book unpostable or postable when it comes to spines ... I'm still confused. I've only marked a book received with problem over a spine/cleaved issue once because it was obvious it was unpostable as the pages were falling out.

And while I am getting a little disappointed being out a credit (or a few), I'm still so confused on the spine issue that I just mark the book received and list it as an unpostable. This is one of the rules where I wished PBS would put up some helpful pics of what is considered postable or not in regards to the spines. I've just decided to lean on the side of caution and not mark the book(s) RWAP and also not repost them for a credit.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 5:41 PM ET
Member Since: 12/21/2007
Posts: 1,642
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I think this is a confusing area for most people. Personally I only consider it a bad trade if the pages are falling out. or about to fall out. I realize that not all books are bound the same way. I wish the rules would be much clearer--not so much with pictures, but rather being more specific about the state of the pages.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 5:52 PM ET
Member Since: 2/11/2007
Posts: 808
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I guess the easiest test would be if, say the book opens naturally between pages A and B -- are A & B "touching each other" as normal (just "worn" at that point), or are they separated such that one could pass a sheet of paper along the inside of the spine itself between them (cleaved)? Actual cleaved books would be two distinct pieces.

I gasp in horror at seeing folks "read" a paperback by folding it back so the covers are together and flipping the book over like a pancake to read each page!

 

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 6:04 PM ET
Member Since: 9/21/2006
Posts: 2,786
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i used to be a paperback killer.  I cracked the spines in a few places on purpose before beginning to read.  That was so i could eat with 1 hand and turn pages with the other.  I have also folded back the front cover to the back as John mentioned. 

When I joined PBS i learned about the proper caring and reading of books.  Now my books still look new when I am done with them.

Somebody a few months back actually posted the website link on where to see actual damaged books.  They had all the definitions and picture examples.  I'll go look for that now.

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 6:42 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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Well I'm going to assume that these are postable since so many others think they are.  I just got another today which I always thought was unpostable.  There's a few different pages where it opens to and the spine has snapped. But no loose pages, I can't see the binding or the glue and otherwise it's in good condition.  The first time I get a complaint about one, I'm going to start marking every book like this RWP until they get a clearer definition going.  Pictures in the help center would be awesome. 

I'm not picky about my books but I like to repost them. I just hate posting ones that are requestionable-it's not worth the hassle. If it were one here and there then I'd offer them as freebies. But I Have about 20 books like this now and most are WL. 

Date Posted: 8/19/2008 10:00 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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Because the Help Center specifically defines unpostables as showing spine, ...

Actually, the book condition guidelines say nothing about a "showing spine". The text, verbatim, is:

Binding:

  • Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book
  • If the book tends to open at a particular page, this is OKAY
  • Small amount of fraying or denting at top or bottom is OKAY

It's the word separation that people seem to disagree on. Some believe that if the pages are apart from each other that the binding has separation. But I think that goes against the meaning of the definition. I believe that separation here means a weak and failing binding, either one that is starting to come apart (ripped) or that pages are separating from (pages falling apart from the spine).  There is no question that in the latter two cases I'm describing here that the book is postable.

Date Posted: 8/20/2008 6:27 AM ET
Member Since: 12/21/2007
Posts: 1,642
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Jane--I'm with you in my interpretation. Otherwise I'd be marking over 75% of the books I've received received with  problem.  To me, binding intact means that the pages are intact and not falling out (or loose). That's what the binding is for after all--to keep the pages intact and the book together.

Date Posted: 8/20/2008 9:13 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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Well I'm glad I started this thread.  Because I was thinking I needed to start marking these as RWP which like Barbara said would be 75% of the books I have.  I've just been posting them on another book site when I'd prefer to post them here.  I have marked really bad ones as RWP. But if I marked everyone that came in with a snapped spine like I described it would be almost every book.  I personally am not picky. I've bought worse books at UBS because I wanted them and they were the only ones I could find.  I just don't want to start racking up the RWP's as a sender.

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