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Topic: Not sure if this qualifies as "broken spine"

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Subject: Not sure if this qualifies as "broken spine"
Date Posted: 3/29/2010 12:40 AM ET
Member Since: 3/26/2010
Posts: 10
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Hi,

I'm new to PBS and just posted all of mine and my wife's books.  Apparently, one of these books was on a member's wish list and was requested immediately as no other copies of this book were in the system.  The member who requested this book requires that the spine is not to be broken.  I took a look at the hardcover book in question and wasn't sure if what I am seeing qualifies as broken.

I was hoping I could get some help here before responding to the request.  I will try my best to describe what I am seeing, but please excuse the incorrect usage of terminology.  I tried looking up the terms I will use online but am not sure if this is the lingo that is used in this forum.

So, when I open up the front cover and flip past the front flyleaf and then the title page, I arrive at the "also by" page of the author.  Now, the binding edge between this page and the back of the title page has a crack running down it, basically from top to bottom.  The crack is such that I can see the crash (loosely woven cloth) of the spine.  Does this qualify as a broken spine?

In grade school, I was taught to inspect the spine of a textbook by holding the book out by its front and back covers and seeing if the spine broke away from the cover.  Doing this test shows that my book does not have a broken spine.  But I'm just not sure this will cut mustard here.

I hope someone can advise me.  If I could post pictures, this would be so much easier.

Thanks, Edward

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 1:40 AM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,781
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You can post pictures!

But I don't know how exactly ... I usually don't do it :)

Regarding the hardcover book .... Is it just a crack or is the spine in 2 pieces and only held together by the fabric? If the book opens to a particular page, that is generally OK to post.

If the fabric is the only thing holding 2 pieces of the spine together, that's not OK.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 2:04 AM ET
Member Since: 3/26/2010
Posts: 10
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I looked around at posting pictures but the only obvious way to do it would be to link to another webpage that is already hosting the picture.  I'd prefer not to do that since I do not have such a hosting account (flickr, etc.) available.  If I'm missing something trivial, I am all ears.

As for the "defect" I am trying to describe....I think the best way I can put it is, this book seems perfect at first glance.  It does not have any issues with opening up to a particular page.  It definitely is not being held together by just the fabric.  In this respect. the binding of this book seems solid- pages will definitely not fall out after reading through it.  Honestly, I think I am nitpicking when I critique the book.  But since it is not perfect and this is my first time, I thought it would be safer to ask around first.

Anyone else care to chime in?

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 9:19 AM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,781
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You can post pictures right into the forum posts. Lots of people do it ... I just don't know how.

http://www.paperbackswap.com/forum/topic.php?t=150725

Here is a link to a previous discrssion ... that also contains links to pictures of paperbacks. May not be as helpful since it does not discuss hardcovers.



Last Edited on: 3/29/10 9:24 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/29/2010 10:01 AM ET
Member Since: 8/15/2007
Posts: 3,044
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I probably would decline the request because it sounds like it is in their requestor conditions that they say no broken spines. And while the book's spine doesn't sound broken from your description, I think it probably would be a problem for them regardless.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 10:12 AM ET
Member Since: 4/7/2008
Posts: 15,690
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Edward - You can use ImageShack to host any pics without having an account. Once you upload it, you can just copy and paste it here in the thread.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 10:57 AM ET
Member Since: 3/26/2010
Posts: 10
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Before Amee E. wrote, I would have concluded that my book is ok to post, based on the thread that Sara P. linked to- thanks Sara, the thread was very helpful.  So I decided to post pictures through ImageShack as D.G. suggested- thanks for the suggestion.

http://img532.imageshack.us/i/bookspine007.jpg/

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/bookspine008.jpg/

The pictures are a little bit blurry- I was in a hurry and my camera doesn't have a good macro/closeup function.  But I think you can get the basic idea from the pictures.

Based on the pictures, are there any new opinions?

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 12:50 PM ET
Member Since: 1/25/2007
Posts: 6,567
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Well, if this was me I wouldn't post a book like this.

I'm always worried it will break the rules or something. Yet I have gotten books from here like that & I have a problem at all with it. I'd have no problem getting a book like that from anyone.

I'm eager to hear what others tell you though.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 1:54 PM ET
Member Since: 2/21/2009
Posts: 2,925
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Although I've received many like that (usually pbs), I wouldn't post it...especially to a person requesting no broken spines since it's pretty close, and with hard handling by the PO, could in fact end up totally broken before receipt.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 6:20 PM ET
Member Since: 5/3/2006
Posts: 6,436
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I agree, I would decline the RC. I'm not sure I would consider it postable at all, but definitely not to someone who doesn't want a broken spine.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 6:39 PM ET
Member Since: 4/16/2008
Posts: 770
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I would also decline the RC.  I would not post that particular book.  I am afraid that it wouldn't make it through the mail system all in one piece.  Sometimes the post office is a little rough on our beloved books!  :(

Have you looked at the Book Bazaar yet?  In the bazaar, you can offer the book as a "free with order" book.  If it is wishlisted, it might get taken right away! 

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 8:25 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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The biggest issue that I can see with it is that it looks like the pages are starting to come loose from the binding at the top.  If that's the case, it would be unpostable in any event.  If they aren't, then it just looks very borderline to me, and not something that I'd post to my PBS shelf, but rather would offer in the BB or the appropriate genre related forum for a credit.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 10:26 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,187
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That looks to me what they refer to as "opening to one page" and pinhole separation (though a serious case of it) and I would consider it postable as long as all the pages are firmly intact. I would not send it to someone who does not want broken spines though because that is just too close to it to risk.

Date Posted: 3/29/2010 10:46 PM ET
Member Since: 1/14/2008
Posts: 346
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Just in case you didn't get it from the comments, books with broken spines are never okay to post, not just because someone has a RC for it.

Yours is boarderline. Is that the only page that is like that? If you apply a little pressure does it try to separate more?

Date Posted: 3/30/2010 12:58 AM ET
Member Since: 3/26/2010
Posts: 10
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Thanks for everyone's comments.  I have decided to decline the request.

For the record, the pages are not falling out and do not appear like they will fall out even with added pressure.  The book does not open to one page either, as stated earlier.  The issue is only with this one page that I have shown in the pictures posted.  I personally think it is a postable book and plan to keep it on my book shelf.

But, since I am new and do not know the ways of this community, I want to abide by the majority opinion and assume it would be the same as the requester.  It would seem that Melanie D. and I are in the minority.  (Sorry Melanie for lumping you in with me, if that was not your intent :P).  But the ayes have it.

Date Posted: 3/30/2010 6:43 AM ET
Member Since: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1,442
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I recently got a book like that.  I wasn't happy about it, but I did not RWAP it because the pages were still secure and I assessed it as a "cleaved" "cracked" spine which is not against the rules.  I do not feel comfortable posting it, however, even to someone without an RC.  My rule of thumb is that I never post a book that I wouldn't want to receive myself.

 

edited because I used the wrong term above.



Last Edited on: 4/2/10 5:21 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/30/2010 12:58 PM ET
Member Since: 5/16/2007
Posts: 893
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I am with those that would not post a book with this problem. I have received some this way but I would offer it in the Book Bazaar and either ask for 1 credit or free with an order from my shelf and explain the damage.

Date Posted: 3/30/2010 11:56 PM ET
Member Since: 11/14/2005
Posts: 6,421
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It appears from the images that there is a space between the pages, and that is specifically described in the rules for posting books. If you haven't read them yet, be sure to take a few minutes to do so. i've also included another helpful link for new members dealing with what you can and cannot post here. Hope they help.

Book Condition Guidelines

What can be swapped here?

Here is the portion of the Guidelines that I think applies to your books, from what I can see of them, tho they are kind of dark, and I could be mistaken, but it appears that there is a space or separation between the two pages:

Binding:

  • Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book
Date Posted: 3/31/2010 2:54 AM ET
Member Since: 8/26/2006
Posts: 9,333
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You can post an image here by clicking on it and dragging it into the "post a reply" box.  Here's Sherry's family:

10893626.jpg

Date Posted: 3/31/2010 12:10 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,187
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I wish the Team would change the Help Center to show their own clarification of separations. They do not ban any and all separtion, the key for them is loose/falling out pages. Here is their answer to Kim on the issue when she sent in Feedback from this thread. This is the reason I believed the book is technically postable as long as the pages are fully intact.

 

Kim H. (rubberducky)
 
medal_silver.pngepostage_user.png
 
Date Posted: 1/27/2009 7:49 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 3,861
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Okay... so I sent a clarification request to the PBS Team, and this is what I got back:

Dear Kim,

We would not consider a pinhole to be a cleaved spine. Books that fall open to a specific
page are postable, and almost every paperback book that does that has at least some small separations.

What matters here is if the pages are securely attached. If they are likely to fall out on the next reading, then the book should not be posted. We really cannot clarify this any further. We need members to use their common sense and best judgment about whether a book is about to fall apart or not. This is just not something we can judge without having the books in our hands.

So I gather that pinholes & cracks in the binding are acceptable as long as the pages are securely attached, and don't look to be tearing loose along any of those perforations.  As with most of the rules, common sense is key.  I think I would take some extra care when packing books like this to ship, just because they could pull loose with any kind of rough handling - such as the USPS manglers so frequently dish out to our poor, defenseless books:P  Anyhoo, hope this is helpful to everyone:)




Last Edited on: 3/31/10 12:11 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 3/31/2010 1:10 PM ET
Member Since: 10/22/2009
Posts: 1,452
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Like Melanie--I too really wish TPTB would provide better clarification on this issue!  Maybe some pictures in the help files on what would be considered postable and what wouldn't.  I have quite a few books that I won't post, but that I received through PBS.  These books have issues--but pages are definitely still in tact--just pinholes--not even as bad as the pictures Edward posted.  I don't mind getting them and really they seem perfectly fine to me.  But there is too much of a gray area surrounding what constitutes "spine damage" for me to feel comfortable posting them.

Date Posted: 4/1/2010 10:15 AM ET
Member Since: 11/14/2005
Posts: 6,421
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I like your answer from PBS Melanie, can you give a direct link to it? Or at least the topic so that I can keep it for reference. I knew they had talked about pinholes, but his look much longer than what I would consider pinholes, but their description of the pages being secure on either side of the pinholes makes a lot of difference in books I've seen and passed on because of not having a clearer definition, and what you've quoted above gives me a much better feeling of what is postable, and definitely gives more leeway. I think even if they added the clarification you quoted in a popup box at the point where I quoted the rules, it would be a great thing. I'm going to send in feedback on that one.

Again, please send me the link to the topic and I'll figure out the link to the exact post.

ETA: Nevermind, still reading without enough cappucino and still missing things in my reading. I see the link to the topic and found the post. Will see if I can get a link to the exact post i a sec. Thanks.

Back again: Ok, here is the link directly to the post that Melanie quoted from above:

www.paperbackswap.com/forum/topic.php?t=150725#p3049705



Last Edited on: 4/1/10 11:14 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 4/1/2010 11:52 AM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,187
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I hid it so only those with enough coffee in them would find it :-) Sorry, I just assume everyone else thinks like me and would know a blue underlined "this thread" would be a link to the mentioned thread.

Date Posted: 4/1/2010 2:31 PM ET
Member Since: 11/14/2005
Posts: 6,421
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Oh, I knew it was a link when I saw it, I just didn't see it the first time. Like I said, I hadn't enough coffee or cappucino in me to read it all hahaha

Date Posted: 7/20/2010 1:07 AM ET
Member Since: 3/26/2010
Posts: 10
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For those people who may still be interested in the outcome of this thread, I wanted to write and say that the book in question was eventually requested again (within the last month) and recently received by the requestor.  In indicating that she received the book, she wrote this:

-----

The member to whom you shipped your book 'Night of Many Dreams' has sent you this personal message.

Thank you so much for the beautiful book.
-----
Do the ends justify the means?  I won't judge.  But I will say, I always knew that someone would appreciate this book.