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Topic: Not a text book or cookbook - has underwriting, highlighting, writing in te

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Subject: Not a text book or cookbook - has underwriting, highlighting, writing in te
Date Posted: 6/25/2009 11:24 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 80
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After all the discussion here about the RCs and the PBS Guidelines, I would have thought everyone using PBS knew they could not post books here with any underwriting, text or highlighting in the text pages (except for textbooks and cookbooks, and then you have to PM the requesting member for permission before shipping it). I even spell this out as one of my 2 mandatory RCs, just so no one has any questions about it in my case.

AND YET, I received a PM from a member earlier today who asked if it would be okay to send me a non-textbook with "some but not a lot" of underlining in it that she "just now" noticed !

At least she asked before sending it.

Sometimes, I wonder if anyone other than the forum posters and the snarky-responders bother to read the RCs or the PBS Guidlines. (sigh!)

So,  I told her no and referred her to the PBS guidelines by giving her the URL to the page (no way to put live links in a PM, apparently).

Has anyone else had this experience? Clearly stated PBS guidelines, restated as part of the RC, yet they still think it is okay to post the book ?

 Anyway, my actual question. If I cancel the order, do I lose my place in the FIFO? Do I have to somehow get her to decline the request so I keep my place in line for the next copy?

 



Last Edited on: 6/25/09 11:26 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 6/25/2009 11:45 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,186
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Yes, you will loose your place if it is a WL book, you would need to have them decline. Since you already have RCs, just tell them to decline if they repost it.

FYI - The site leaders have confirmed that ANY book can be posted under the textbook/workbook exception. As long as they PM and get agreement from the requester on the writing/highlighting prior to sending they ARE following the rules. They did apparently miss the part in your RC that you didn't want any that way, but be polite, they are not outside of the PBS rules, just not getting your RCs.

Date Posted: 6/26/2009 12:08 AM ET
Member Since: 6/29/2007
Posts: 17,096
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Also,

You can put a live link in a PM, you just have to use raw html code. Use the a href= tag and you'll get a link.

Date Posted: 6/26/2009 11:30 AM ET
Member Since: 5/10/2005
Posts: 2,354
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They need to decline.  They posted a book not in guidelines, they should lose their spot not you.

Date Posted: 6/26/2009 11:49 AM ET
Member Since: 9/13/2007
Posts: 2,520
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That's not true Kayote. Any book can be considered a textbook. They are doing the right thing by sending a PM to confirm that it is alright to send the book. I believe it is still their place to cancel the order, but the book does meet the guidelines as long as the receiver agrees to the condition before the book is sent (which in this case, they obviously don't).
Date Posted: 6/26/2009 12:47 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
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Thank you for the pointer / tip about how to put live links in a PM. I will try that next time.

You know, if any book could be considered a text book , that makes the distinction for textbooks meaningless.

I know that some other posts in the forums have said that the posting member may consider anything a textbook, so they can justify (in their own mind) posting it anyway, but that same post went on to say that eventually - after wasting a bunch of members' time with the requesting members refusing the book via PM - the posting member will come to understand that it is not a textbook.

This shows that we need a simple, clear definition of what PBS means when they say textbooks and cookbooks are the exception to the rule of no writing in the text pages. I would suggest that a textbook is one used in an actual class at a school, college or university, but we seem to have so many people on the forums who are rules-lawyers and who look for ways to obscure even the clearest distinctions, that I am sure something more detailed would be required. (grin)

In this case, to get back to my question, since my RC clearly states no writing, underlining or highlights in the text pages of the book -- she needs to decline the request, or else I lose my spot in line, and she needs to do so now before someone else requests the 1 or 2 other copies of the book, right?

Date Posted: 6/26/2009 12:53 PM ET
Member Since: 6/25/2007
Posts: 5,637
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nevermind. Info already stated.

Last Edited on: 6/26/09 1:00 PM ET - Total times edited: 3
Date Posted: 6/26/2009 12:57 PM ET
Member Since: 1/2/2006
Posts: 575
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"This shows that we need a simple, clear definition of what PBS means when they say textbooks and cookbooks are the exception to the rule of no writing in the text pages."

I agree. I hate when they change a guideline like this.  When you do a search this is what comes up under, "Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS" If they want to change the rules now, then they should change the wording here also.

Overall Condition:

  • No damage at all from water or other liquid
  • Not soiled
  • No stains (exception for cookbooks--see below)
  • No mold
  • no highlighting, underlining or writing on text pages (exception for textbooks --see below)

 

  • No writing or highlighting or underlining on text pages
    • a signature or note on the flyleaf or inside front or back cover is OKAY
    • an author's signature on the title page is OKAY
    • writing or highlighting or underlining on the text pages is NOT OKAY
      • Exception: if it is a textbook or workbook, these are expected to have highlighting/underlining/writing
        • if you post a textbook/workbook, the condition must be described to the requestor in a Personal Message
        • AND the described condition MUST BE AGREED TO in a reply PM before the book is sent
        • This is the one of the ONLY two cases in which a PM exchange about a book is required before the book can be sent(the other is for cookbooks--see below).
  • Date Posted: 6/26/2009 1:04 PM ET
    Member Since: 3/27/2009
    Posts: 25,000
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    Where's the logic?

    • The PBS criteria says no writing, underlining, highlighting in books except text books
    • PBS now says any book can be a textbook
    • Therefore, writing is acceptable.

    What the heck?

    Date Posted: 6/26/2009 1:17 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
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    a textbook is one used in an actual class at a school, college or university,

    Tim,

    This will not clarify the issue at all. Because so many college classes use things like novels (especially in English classes). Really any non-fiction books that you might see in Barnes & Noble could potentially be used in a class somewhere. And, also tons of the fiction, as well. Its all the rage to use non-traditional media as part of the curriculum for classes in colleges today. For example, if you study certain periods in history, you might be reading fiction written at the time as part of the class.

    I took a college class in science fiction - we read a selection of classic and new sci-fi novels. I took a class in current events - we read everything from history books to current events books to biographies of political figures to magazine articles. I took some computer science classes - in some we used what might be considered a "traditional textbook", in others we just used off-the-shelf computer reference books you might find in any bookstore.

    If you go to a cooking class, you might be using cookbooks as textbooks.

    You see? Really, any kind of book could be used as a textbook in a class. And, for those members who are just coming out of college, they perceive these books as their textbooks if they used them in a class, regardless of whether or not most regular members of the public would normally perceive the same book that way.

    Date Posted: 6/26/2009 1:28 PM ET
    Member Since: 4/13/2009
    Posts: 242
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    Laura:

    Actually, the logic follows:

    • The PBS criteria says no writing, underlining, highlighting in books except text books
    • PBS now says any book can be a textbook
    • Therefore, all books fall under the textbook exception, which REQUIRES a PM from the sender describing the condition of the book AND a PM from the requester ACCEPTING the condition of the book.

    In this case, the sender should have marked that the book did not meet RCs, so no one would lose a place in the FIFO line.

    Date Posted: 6/26/2009 1:33 PM ET
    Member Since: 9/13/2007
    Posts: 2,520
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    Yup. I missed the first time that the OP had an RC asking for no writing (etc.) they definately should have declined because their book does not meet your RCs. I would PM them and tell them just that (if you haven't already) and to please cancel the book anyway. I might even consider adding that if they send the book anyway, you will have to mark it RWAP for not meeting your RCs.
    Date Posted: 6/26/2009 6:57 PM ET
    Member Since: 8/16/2007
    Posts: 15,186
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    I have always wondered why everyone drops the exception to textbooks instead of the stated textbooks and work books because that makes the difference and logic in TPTB. to me Workbooks CAN mean anything. . I can't understand why anyone would highlight or write in a book unless they were using it as a workbook for something.  Maybe my college professor decided to have me count how many times Tom Clancy used the word "lawyer" in his writing and so I have to go through and highlight every usage of "lawyer" in every one of his books. That makes a common fiction book a workbook to me, yeah no one is ever going to take the books in that condition, but I can try.

    I really don't think the want to put that in the rules because they would rather most people read "no writing and highlighting". If they put it in writing that anything can be posted under those rules, then more people may try to get those books into the system.

     

    Hopefully the other member has cancelled the transaction by now Tim. If not, send in feedback with the RC and PM from them and ask the site to  cancel it so you can order a different copy.



    Last Edited on: 6/26/09 7:00 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
    Date Posted: 6/26/2009 8:55 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/8/2009
    Posts: 2,016
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    We are not willing to accept books that have any highlighting, underlining or other writing in the text pages.

    It could be that she thought you were re-hashing PBS guidelines, but that there is a textbook exception to such guidelines, and she was following protocol to PM you to tell you about them. Perhaps including (including textbooks/cooksbooks) at the end of your sentence in your RC would clarify.

    Or maybe she listed the book in error. Who knows?

    Just for the record, the whole textbook definition "ruling" from tptb is no longer a quote from a forum post. Actual help document (or maybe I've just noticed)

    Sorry to hear you're having so much hassle on PBS, Tim. I mean that sincerely.

    Date Posted: 6/27/2009 9:42 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
    Posts: 80
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    Well, the latest is that she mailed the book anyway, despite the PBS guidelines and my clearly-stated RC.

    To say this is frustrating would be a vast understatement, as now I will have to mark it RWAP (my first time for doing that) and hope she gives me back my credit and wait to re-request it.

    I don't buy that she was following protocol -- this was not a textbook and, anyway, my RC has no exceptions, so only a rules-lawyer would think it is okay to add exceptions because my RC is similar to the PBS guidelines. I very deliberately cut the wording down on my RCs to eliminate any areas of confusion or any excuses for not understanding -- no means no, it does not mean no-sometimes or no-except-for-you.

    What I think is that she hopes I will decide it is too much trouble to hassle with her over the obvious RWAP and I will just let it slide. She will see that aint gonna happen when I get the book in.

    You know, I really have had very few hassles on PBS. Some snarky comments to my RCs, so I suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous critique by posting them in the forum, then I savagely edited them down to what should be bone-numbingly-obvious statements. Other than people who want to be rules-lawyers (looking for exceptions and vagueness they can use where there is none), I am 100% happy with the people I have dealt with here and about 99% happy with the quality of the books I have received. I do believe PBS has some holes or gaps in their thinking, but I am aware that some of this is probably that I am not yet familiar enough with all the features -- so there may be work-arounds that will let me bridge the gaps once I know more about all the stuff here. I still recommend PBS to everyone I meet who seems to love books.

    Please do not take my postings in the forums as representative of my overall state of happiness with PBS -- I am very happy here, with the exceptions noted by my coming to the forums to carp about them. (grin)

     

     

    50 is the new 30. (My motto for this year - since today (6-27-09) is my 50th birthday, I am adopting this motto until I turn 51.)



    Last Edited on: 6/27/09 9:43 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 6/27/2009 10:04 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
    Posts: 80
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    Okay, I went and read the new guideline on textbooks. This is, with all due respect and bless-their-hearts, INSANE ! Why bother to have an exception for textbooks and cookbooks, if you then turn around and say any book could be a text book? The logical conclusion here is that the "textbook exception" has just killed the rule it was intended to be an exception for.

    Why not just give a clear and simple description/definition of what is and what is not a textbook?

    I grant that just saying it was used in a class will not work. As it was pointed out above, pretty much anything written could potentially be used in a class. So, maybe a better definition could be devised and I just am not the one to devise it. Surely, those who publish textbooks know how to tell their works from mainstream fiction and genre fiction and non-fiction? Hey, how about, textbooks are books that were not published and/or sold as mainstream fiction, genre fiction or standard non-fiction ? No, too simple. (hmm)

    What this means in my case is that the new guideline has withdrawn the previously-stated rule and left it up to my RCs to filter out what I consider to be bad books. I now need to go back and re-read the guidelines on a regular basis to see what other rules they have  rewritten, so I can re-write my RCs to make up for deficient rules from PBS. And do it again and again and again.  You know, this is beginning to sound like WORK, not fun.

    What it also means is that the sending member has all the power in the transaction -- she can decide whether to ignore the response to the PM and mail the book anyway (she did), she can decide whether to return the credit after the book arrives and gets a well-deserved RWAP (I hope she will not and it will), and meanwhile the requesting member loses their place in line for the next actually-acceptable copy.

    Changing the rules without a very good reason is not good for the PBS community or for those relying upon it as a place where we can swap our books. This new guideline is a Bad Idea and it should be revised to clearly define what is a textbook, rather than surrendering to the rules-lawyers who will always look for loopholes like this to game the system.

    All of which is IMHO, of course. (grin)

    50 is the new 30. (My motto for this year - since today (6-27-09) is my 50th birthday, I am adopting this motto until I turn 51.)

    Date Posted: 6/27/2009 11:00 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/8/2009
    Posts: 2,016
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    What it also means is that the sending member has all the power in the transaction -- she can decide whether to ignore the response to the PM and mail the book anyway (she did), she can decide whether to return the credit after the book arrives and gets a well-deserved RWAP (I hope she will not and it will), and meanwhile the requesting member loses their place in line for the next actually-acceptable copy.

    I think this statement reflects some misunderstanding of the PBS protocols, Tim.

    If a sending member receives a PM that declines a "textbook" based on condition, then she is supposed to cancel the order. The book gets removed from her bookshelf. If she wants to repost, it goes to the back of the FIFO queue. Attempts to move books with highlighting, etc on PBS can be met by cancellations, the need to repost, and never getting very far in FIFO.

    Once you receive the book (assuming it is actually the correct book), you would mark it RWAP. (I am not sure in this situation whether it is RWAP-violates RC not met or RWAP-damaged by sender -- maybe ask or decide for yourself?) You could ask for your credit back and get to keep the book regardless. You are not obligated to send the book back, although you can accept a request to do so if the sender offers you an extra credit to cover postage, or to reimburse you for postage.

    If the person does not resolve the RWAP to your satisfaction, then you can mark it as a RWAP-unresolved. This counts as a "double strike" against that account.

    You have some dashed expectations of getting a postable copy of the book earlier, but you do not lose your place in line. You are returned to your place in FIFO because of the problem swap.

    Actually, I don't think this is a rule change, per se. I wanted to post some med school books when I first joined, so I searched for the textbook definition but did not find one. They were books used to review for exams, not strictly textbooks. So I asked a TG and she thought I can try posting them and follow the textbooks protocol, which I did. 

    Happy Birthday, Tim! =) 

    Date Posted: 6/27/2009 11:32 PM ET
    Member Since: 3/27/2009
    Posts: 25,000
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    This is...INSANE !

    Agreed.

    Why bother to have an exception for textbooks and cookbooks, if you then turn around and say any book could be a text book? The logical conclusion here is that the "textbook exception" has just killed the rule it was intended to be an exception for.

    Like I said before they changed the logic and made writing acceptable in ALL BOOKS.

    The logic is now:

    • No writing in books (except textbooks)
    • The new rule says all books can be considered textbooks
    • Therefore, since all books can be considered texts the original "NO writing in books" criterion has been obliviated.  PMing for permission to send a book with writing will increase substantially, and so will RCs.

    I now need to go back and re-read the guidelines on a regular basis to see what other rules they have rewritten, so I can re-write my RCs to make up for deficient rules from PBS.

    Yep, It stinks.

     



    Last Edited on: 6/27/09 11:33 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
    Date Posted: 6/27/2009 11:51 PM ET
    Member Since: 12/9/2007
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    Happy Birthday, Tim! 

    Actually, it's not a bad idea to go reread the rules and guidelines every so often because things do change and we do tend to forget details.

    I noticed this giant loophole a long time ago when a book showed up and the sender justified it as a textbook.  It may well have been one.  But she didn't PM me first.  I noticed at that point that anyone could claim any book as a textbook, and it probably would hold up.  But they still need to PM and ask.  I will always refuse.  I will always RWAP if they send without PM-ing me.  I will always request my credit be returned.

    As for who would highlight and/or underline anything that wasn't a textbook???  Well, may I point out my own mother.  She sends me magazines and books (rarely am I interested in any of them, but it makes her feel she's doing something for me).  Every last one of them are underlined heavily in red.  I can in no way read these books, etc., because of the underlining of almost every line on every page.  She's always done this.  She has a Master's Degree and a Bachelor's Degree in Math.  I can only think it's a habit she got during that stage of her life.  I am so glad that none of these abused books are interesting to me.  And she doesn't understand why I can't stand to read them.  What can I say???  I've quit trying.

    Ruth

     

    Date Posted: 6/28/2009 1:00 AM ET
    Member Since: 3/3/2009
    Posts: 93
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    I think it's possible that it was a post of mine a couple of months ago asking "what is a textbook?" that prompted the rules clarification. 

    I have/had a handful of books used in college classes that have some degree of underlining, including a computer software book, a best-selling book on international macro economic trends, a primer on public speaking, and a discussion of critical thinking.  I didn't know if they "counted" as textbooks here or not, and was happy to receive the answer that they did.  There really is no way to strictly and accurately define what a textbook and still capture the kind of books people want to swap.  Three of my "textbooks" have been requested; I explained the book condition, and they were accepted by the member. 

    The site could, of course, simply disallow all books of any kind with any writing on the pages.  That would mean a lot of disappointed people who are obviously happy and willing to be able to swap for textbooks that do have writing.  However, under the existing system, it is a violation of the rules to send a book with writing in it without the receiver first agreeing to the swap.  Anyone willing to break that rule would probably be willing to break the rule about not posting any books with writing in them in first place, so who would it gain to have an iron-clad prohibition?

    Alternatively, the site could explicitly allow swapping of any books with underlining, as long as permission was granted first.  I don't know how many people are like Ruth's mother, and underline books just for fun and personal edification :), but I think it's safe to say that would result in a lot more PMs and trouble.  Instead, the site has chosen a middle route of strongly discouraging the swapping of marked up books, while allowing for a fair amount of wiggle room and, dare I say, personal responsibility and integrity in transactions.  Almost Solomonic, really!



    Last Edited on: 6/28/09 1:50 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
    Date Posted: 6/28/2009 1:26 AM ET
    Member Since: 1/17/2009
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    Diana,

    I agree. I think the policy is fine the way it is. I don't mind receiving (certain) books with a small amount of writing or underlining in them, if I am asked beforehand.

    And I have sent a few out myself, with the appropriate PMs, and have never been asked to cancel the order.

    There are actually 2 layers of protection for members who don't want any underlining or highlighting in the books, you can use RCs to state that, and also the rules themselves protect you by requiring PMs first.

    As to why people highlight books, here is one reason. I am long out of college, but my husband and I travel frequently, and so I am a frequent purchaser of guidebooks. I will buy several guidebooks for a destination. I like to highlight things like the hours/days attractions are open, or special directions or tips/hints. My highlighting is not extensive, but it is present. So, I have about a hundred recently published guidebooks about various exotic destinations (these books are in short supply on PBS, by the way, recent editions of most of them are Wish Listed) and I haven't posted any of them because of this minor hightlighting in the books.  I will probably end up donating them to the library, where they will no doubt go very quickly.

    My personal feeling is that probably most people who are waiting for these books would like to recive these relatively expensive books for free from PBS, even with the minor highlighting, however, I am not going to do it because of the work involved in PMing each and every person first to check.

    So, see, the rules work!   :)

    Date Posted: 6/28/2009 9:50 AM ET
    Member Since: 3/3/2009
    Posts: 93
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    Sara, I'm sure you know this, but you could post a description of your guidebooks in the Book Baazar and offer them for credit.  You would still have to PM, but only with people who already know the condition of your book and want it anyway.

    Date Posted: 6/28/2009 11:07 AM ET
    Member Since: 12/9/2007
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    BTW,  I have never  and will never try to swap these books.  LOL!!  I figure if I can't stand to read them, then no one else could either.  It's a shame and it hurts me since I hate to waste a book, but as far as I'm concerned they are ruined - guidelines or no guidelines.  ;D

    Ruth

    Date Posted: 6/28/2009 1:16 PM ET
    Member Since: 1/30/2009
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    Sara - that is a very good example of the rare case where I wouldn't mind underlining.  Definitely post in the BB.  It's really a shame that the travel forum isn't more active.

    Date Posted: 6/28/2009 1:34 PM ET
    Member Since: 3/8/2007
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    Sara- you should definitely post your guidebooks in the bazzar.  I personnally would love to get guidebooks and would not care if they had highlighting.  If you do, can you pls pm me?  LOL

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