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Topic: WL Books in Bazaar

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Subject: WL Books in Bazaar
Date Posted: 9/24/2010 4:45 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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I don't know why this bothers me so much, but I've been seeing more and more threads in the BB with people offering WL books outside of the designated multiple thread.  Is there anything one can do?

Date Posted: 9/24/2010 4:51 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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About all you can do is tell them. If one person does it repeatedly ask the Team to have a talk with them.

Sadly its a domino effect. Once one person see someone else doing it, they do it, and someone else sees them doing it...

Date Posted: 9/24/2010 5:34 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
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That's what worries me.  I've seen two in the past day or so, told them politely that this wasn't allowed, was ignored.  The thing that was so annoying is that they were all for multiples so could just have posted completely legally in the designated thread.  The multiple thread has been such a useful thing for people, I would hate to see it jeopardized.

Date Posted: 9/24/2010 7:06 PM ET
Member Since: 7/12/2010
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Contact TPTB.

-RD

Date Posted: 9/24/2010 7:35 PM ET
Member Since: 1/29/2006
Posts: 54,837
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Ok, but it doesn't actually say anywhere that you can only post in that thread.  The Multiples WL thread says that the TPTB said it's OK to have a specific thread, not that one is *required* to use it.  The current "no wl books" rule in the bazaar rules thread:

 

(6) No trying to jump the Wish List "line" by offering or asking for postable Wish Listed books.  Postable Wish Listed books should be posted and swapped "officially".  This of course does not apply to posts advertising an alternate ISBN  (or non-ISBN version) of a Wish Listed title; it is fine to advertise that you have those posted to your bookshelf.

 

...would technically include the Multiples WL thread, since it's not excluded.  Personally, I think the above rule is obsolete and should, at the very least, be altered.  Also, if it's forbidden to post anywhere but that thread, they need to make it an official rule.   I think of that thread like a lot of others "convenient to put it all in one place, but not required".

Honestly, I don't know why it bothers anyone more that people are using single threads if it doesn't bother you (generic) that the WL multiples are happening at all.

Date Posted: 9/24/2010 7:47 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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You are incorrect Beth, that rule is not obsolete. The ONLY place that it is authorized in the Bazaar to post Wish List books is in the Wish List Multiples thread the site authorized for doing it and under the rules of that thread. Any post outside of that thread is violating that rule.

I don't understand why people think just because the site says that you can do something in one thread that they can do it their own way in violation of rules specifically stated there.

The reason they shouldn't be posted elsewhere is because all posts offering WL books have to follow the rules in that thread AND it is a monitored thread where all posts are checked to be in compliance with the rules because if people don't follow those rules we will lose the right to offer them completely.

Date Posted: 9/24/2010 7:52 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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Mainly because TPTB have indicated via the mods from the multiple thread that if people abuse it, it will no longer be allowed. From the rules portion of the multiple thread:

Due to the economy and so many of us desiring to save money on postage when mailing books, we've been given permission from the Team to have a specific thread to list our WL books that we need to send in multiples.. There are certain rules that MUST be followed within this thread, so please read below.

"have a specific thread" seems fairly clear to me.  This thread keeps it from being more of a free for all than it already is.  I'm a pretty strict FIFO gal, but saving on postage great for members for whom sending out one book at a time would be a hardship - and without it there would be fewer WL books in the system.  It would be a shame for people who don't think the rules apply to them to ruin it for everybody.

Date Posted: 9/25/2010 2:22 AM ET
Member Since: 5/18/2007
Posts: 13,193
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Caviglia, Are you just talking BB by your most recent post? Or the entire site? I know the quote comes from the BB but you sound like you're talking generically when you get to the last paragraph.

You're aware the genre forums offer their own WL threads, aren't you? Those threads have absolutely nothing to do with economics or mailing out multiple books although that's the turn they've taken over the last year. The genre threads have been around for quite awhile so I'm not understanding the relationship between economics and the TPTB allowing this to be the only reason WL books can be offered. In the BB yes ... that was the reason for that thread ... but the genre threads have no rules when it comes to multiples and have been around for quite awhile.

Personally, and I'm on here a lot, I haven't noticed an increase in people offering WL books. I haven't noticed it all except for unpostable WL offers, which is allowed in the BB in individual threads.



Last Edited on: 9/25/10 2:30 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/25/2010 3:23 AM ET
Member Since: 5/18/2007
Posts: 13,193
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That's what worries me.  I've seen two in the past day or so, told them politely that this wasn't allowed, was ignored. 

Are you talking about the cookbook one? She didn't ignore. After being told 5 times, including by the OP of this thread, in a short amount of time she just hadn't checked back yet. She was  apologetic, said it was her first first and moved the "offending" thread to the designated thread.

I think everyone makes mistakes once in awhile and I think this was genuainly an error. And she apologized -- no harm, no foul.

The other one I found too -- not sure if she ignored you or had just disposed of her books. But I can tell you that most people respond to a scolding or reminder much better in a PM as opposed to being chastised in public. I know that's the recommendations of many TG's here -- do it in a PM instead of in public.

Very little makes me angry on this website. If I feel the need to tell someone something via PM it's usually to protect them from being punished in public because after once being rebuked in public I realized that a long string of people saying "no-no" didn't make me feel too good. I stopped doing, for the most part, myself. 

I PM'd someone the other day -- I got to her privately before a long line of people could chastise her like what happened to the person offering the cookbooks. She fixed it and no one was the wiser. I wish more people could do it via PM. It's so much nicer, I think.

Of course, repeat offenders of various things, I just watch the wolves circle and let them go in for the kill. crying

ETA: Edited so many times cuz I can't spell or operate grammar correctly ....



Last Edited on: 9/25/10 3:40 AM ET - Total times edited: 3
Date Posted: 9/25/2010 12:42 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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Are you talking about the cookbook one? She didn't ignore. After being told 5 times, including by the OP of this thread, in a short amount of time she just hadn't checked back yet.
 

I wasn't.  I was talking about two other people whose posts are now changed to "Book Taken!". 

I wasn't talking about the genre threads.  As I said, after having almost never seeing anyone offer WL books in the BB, I suddenly saw two threads in one day (the cookbook one was posted after I posted this).

It's funny, I loathe it when people PM me about forum posts.  I would much rather people repond to a public post, publicly.



Last Edited on: 9/25/10 12:45 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/25/2010 1:20 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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I guess I view it as a "teaching moment".  If the exchange is conducted via PM, no one else is going to see it and therefore go, "oh, I didn't know it wasn't okay to do that."

I've never thought about it specifically before, but I think I'm pretty strict in my thinking in terms of internet forums being a public space.  When you post something, you don't have much of a right to dictate responses (unless you are he site owner), and one should pretty much assume what is said is meant for the whole class, rather than just the OP.  The PBS forums are mostly self moderated, and very well, too (cf. PBS with truly unmoderated posting on places like Digg or :::shudder::: YouTube).  If this self moderation is conducted via PM, it might address the problem of one specific poster, but doesn't really address the issue in terms of what the expectations of the community are.  It's an interesting question though, vis a vis one person's (possible) discomfort vs. what's best for the group as a whole.

Date Posted: 9/25/2010 1:36 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,852
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I guess I view it as a "teaching moment".  If the exchange is conducted via PM, no one else is going to see it and therefore go, "oh, I didn't know it wasn't okay to do that."

Yup, agree completely.

ETA: I don't think anyone was rude about correcting the posters in the BB, at least, that I saw.



Last Edited on: 9/25/10 1:37 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/25/2010 3:17 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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But I can tell you that most people respond to a scolding or reminder much better in a PM as opposed to being chastised in public. I know that's the recommendations of many TG's here -- do it in a PM instead of in public.

These days I send a PM first unless it is not the first time I have seen that member do it or it a post that needs to be correctly quickly. If the PM doesn't produce results after an hour or two, I post in the thread. IMO it is bad to have those posts sitting out there for other members who don't know the rules to see follow suit. If someone is sensitive enough that having a rule pointed out to them "in public" will upset them, then they should take the time to read the rules before posting. 

Date Posted: 9/25/2010 4:05 PM ET
Member Since: 5/18/2007
Posts: 13,193
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If someone is sensitive enough that having a rule pointed out to them "in public" will upset them, then they should take the time to read the rules before posting. 

I hope you're not pointing fingers at me for this one because of what I said. My case was totally different and people were downright nasty -- it wasn't a posting error either. I have read and do read the instructions. I've been around here for a long while so I do know the rules.

Some people are just rude and nasty when they point out errors, lapses in judgement or forgetfulness. I don't think it always has to do with not reading the rules. I've seen TGs break the rules before accidentally, as well. Sometimes it's just a one-time error. It should be done in a PM. It's just common courtesy.

I mean, I don't chastise my employees in front of anyone -- even if everyone could benefit from their error. That type of workplace faux pas can get get someone fired or at least demoted, given they have no idea the proper protocol around their employees.

I don't berate my friends or point out their errors in public either. Neither do I my kids. Despite the fact the kid next door could benefit from the chastisement. Why should I here?

I realize this is a message  board/forum so people behave differently on here. Well, some people. That's their prerogative. Makes no difference to me, really. I will add my opinion, but when the day sets if everyone chooses to reprimand their follow posters, have at it. I don't choose to do it that way and THAT'S what I'M concerned about. - MY behaviour.



Last Edited on: 9/25/10 4:06 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/25/2010 4:25 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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No Susan I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to in general, when all that is done is a post that says "hey, you can't  do that" or a simple pasting of the rule. That is what USUALLY happens in the Bazaar. I have had people say I was rude in my post when I simply posted the rule they violated and I think if they are that sensitive to being told a rule exists, they need to go look for any rules before they post. You are using the word "reprimand" and I think that shows that you put a negative conotation to the correction when many people who post the correction are not in any way trying to be negatice or mean, they are simply helping someone understand the rule.

I do disagree that this is anything like chastising employees or friends in front of other people. Those situations are usually something spoken or acted and the offending action is no longer visible. A forum is written and as long as that error is written out there and not corrected it leads others to believe that it is OK to do it. In the case of the original topic here - people posting WL offers in the Bazaar outside of the approved and monitored thread - the consequenses could be that we can no longer offer WL books anywhere in the forums. I, for one, am not willing to risk that for the sake of possibly offending someone by pointing out that they are breaking the rule and it makes no difference if they are doing it out of ignorance, error, laziness, or not giving a damn.



Last Edited on: 9/25/10 4:26 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/25/2010 8:39 PM ET
Member Since: 1/22/2008
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I've thought of pming before but I always wonder if 3 other people have already pmed about that.  If it's in the thread people can see they've been made aware of the rule.

Date Posted: 9/26/2010 9:26 PM ET
Member Since: 3/22/2009
Posts: 2,402
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But I can tell you that most people respond to a scolding or reminder much better in a PM as opposed to being chastised in public. I know that's the recommendations of many TG's here -- do it in a PM instead of in public.

+1.  I can understand the desire to immediately jump on the issue in the offending thread in the hopes of having a chilling effect on other potential problems. That said, if I were to screw up and post something in an unacceptable place because of a misunderstanding of the rules or a space cadet moment, I would welcome a friendly PM giving me a heads-up that I was in error and do my best to address the situation.  If someone decides to publicly chastise me, however, there is very little chance I would comply with anything I was asked/told to do.  A character flaw, to be sure, but somehow I doubt I'm the only one. If it is a repeat offender who knows and chooses to flaunt the rules, I see that as a different cup of tea entirely.

Date Posted: 9/26/2010 10:10 PM ET
Member Since: 4/25/2007
Posts: 11,516
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I post a polite reminder in the offending thread and direct the person to the correct thread to post on.  Some people get offended, some don't.  I once had someone (not the offender) PM me and tell me they couldn't believe how rude I was being.  I didn't feel I was rude, if I was I would have apologized publically since I'd posted publically.

Doesn't bother me at all.  If someone makes a mistake and has a problem with that being pointed out to them, that's their problem and not mine.  Yes I'm going to post it on their thread because otherwise there are suddenly 5 more offending threads popping up on a forum, with the excuse that someone else did it so they can too.  If no one sees the error being pointed out, then they feel justified in repeating it.

If I made a mistake in a post on a public forum, I'd expect to be publically corrected as well.  I'm not so egotistical that I can't admit when I've made a mistake.  We all make them so no big deal.

Date Posted: 9/26/2010 10:15 PM ET
Member Since: 8/15/2007
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Those threads have absolutely nothing to do with economics or mailing out multiple books although that's the turn they've taken over the last year.

Really? What are/were they for then?

I truly thought they were for saving money by sending out multiples which is why I used them. I thought it was also the place to go where you know someone who wants that particular type of book will see it or find the particular books you're looking for instead of wading through all the BB posts. I don't know why, but most people in the BB don't include, in either the title or body of their post, what the main genres are that they have.

Date Posted: 9/26/2010 10:51 PM ET
Member Since: 3/22/2009
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Sorry, I though we were having a discussion that allowed for alternate viewpoints. I'll just take my ego (or knee-jerk objection to taking orders) and flounce back over to CMT. smiley

Date Posted: 9/26/2010 11:26 PM ET
Member Since: 11/15/2008
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Really? What are/were they for then?

When I first discovered them they were mostly used so people could post and mail in a short amount of time to someone they knew would accept immediately instead of waiting for the book to sit and maybe go through many members before finally being accepted. 

Date Posted: 9/27/2010 7:04 AM ET
Member Since: 4/7/2008
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If I made a mistake in a post on a public forum, I'd expect to be publically corrected as well.  I'm not so egotistical that I can't admit when I've made a mistake.  We all make them so no big deal.

+1. As long as the poster is polite, I don't see a problem with it. I've never understood why people get offended by a polite post stating why they are the doing the wrong thing. It's not as if everybody hasn't made a mistake in their life.

One of the most common things that happen in the genre forums is for new people to post deals outside of the designated threads. Usually (at least in the L&R forum where I'm more familiar) somebody would comment that's not allowed, explain the reason and point to the right place. As this tends to happen in bunches - all of a sudden you see 2 or 3 people posting deals - I think the best way is to post in the thread so that people know they shouldn't be doing it.

Date Posted: 9/27/2010 11:05 AM ET
Member Since: 8/15/2007
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When I first discovered them they were mostly used so people could post and mail in a short amount of time to someone they knew would accept immediately instead of waiting for the book to sit and maybe go through many members before finally being accepted.

Oh, so people just don't like that they can't skip the WL without ordering more than one now? I think I'm finally understanding why some people say they're horrible things now. I thought they didn't like them in general, not just that they didn't like that they had to order more than one book most of the time.

Date Posted: 9/27/2010 12:09 PM ET
Member Since: 5/18/2007
Posts: 13,193
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When I first discovered them they were mostly used so people could post and mail in a short amount of time to someone they knew would accept immediately instead of waiting for the book to sit and maybe go through many members before finally being accepted.

That's exactly what they were created for a few years ago. Many of us were tired of people putting books on their WL and forgetting about them or not deleting them so the books would sit in limbo until someone accepted them. I was involved in the Paranormal one for the most part. There was NO massive cross posting like there is now but some did cross over so many of us that were on one, got involved in the other too.

not just that they didn't like that they had to order more than one book most of the time.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, no, it's nothing like it used to be in the genre forum WL threads. The BB WL multiples thread was created a long time after the genre WL threads started -- and that one was specifically for mailing multples. People brought that way of thinking over to the genre threads and it gradually took over when many of us (I'm one of the few left) who used to trade on there regularly left the thread. We never had HORDES of books to offer -- just a book here and there, maybe two or three that when we were done we'd see if anyone wanted it. It was ALWAYS first come, first serve. Not, whoever orders the most books wins like many do now.



Last Edited on: 9/27/10 12:16 PM ET - Total times edited: 2