I received yet another water damaged book in the mail a few days ago.  There seems to be a huge amount being mailed lately.  Of course the sender and I disagree on the condition and she wants me to mail the book back and she will give me 2 credits..

No problems there.  My concern is that she stated she would like to have it back and send it to someone who would be happy to have it and read it.  Am I wrong to think that now I don't want to send it back only to have it go back into the system and have someone else get it?  Of course it would end up fine for me in the end, but not so nice for the next person who gets it.  What do you think?  And what should I say in my PM?  She never stated if she would give me the credits first before I mail it.  Thanks so much.

Tricia

edited to add:  I hate confrontation.  I wish I never received another unpostable book. 

Some people won't send unpostable books back for that reason. To me it doesn't make sense that a person would repost it. say she paid $2.50 in postage to send it and then a credit to get it back. She's spent $5 and is in the same place she was before she posted the damaged book. Now she's going to spend another $2.50 to resend in hopes the next person won't call her on it. That's $7.50 to earn one credit. they could have bought 3 credits in the Bazaar and still had their book.

I personally  think most people ask for them back because they don't think it is fair for the receiver to have the book and get their credit back too and will dispose of it through other outlets like donating it or listing on a different site. So for me I try to be fair to the sender and if I am not paying them for the book I offer to send it back as long as I get postage up front.

Too bad she hasn't already given you the credits. If she had, I would buddy her back one and tell her you don't want to send it back.

Saying you don't want to send the book back now before any credit returns will probably make her not return the first credit.

I don't know if they would get involved but you could send TPTB the PMs showing that she knows it's water damaged and plans on resending it. They could get your credit back for you as well if she refuses once you say you would rather not return the book.

I think she actually does not think it is water damaged, which is why I think she will repost it.  But I do understand why some people do want the book back.

  It is not only water damaged but stained blue from where the water soaked through the last few pages.  The cover has blue ink in it.   I would feel really bad if she sent it on to someone else, but maybe the next person would complain too and she would learn?  Maybe?  I can wish right?  But if the next person doesn't complain, then she did not learn anything valuable.

Oh, then I guess the TPTB wouldn't get involved if she hasn't admitted she knew it was water damaged.

I'd just send it back then since there is no recourse for you. I don't have a lot of credits, so I would want that credit to order a new copy (and I doubt she'll give the one credit back if you don't agree to mail it back, but you can always give it a try). I would just hope she would see when she got back that it truly was unpostable.

I'm with Melanie.  I'm guessing that once she sees it, she won't repost it.  If she refunds your damaged book credit, and gives you a credit or $ up front to pay for shipping, I would sent it back, but that's your choice -- the help docs say you don't have to mail it back if you don't want to.  If it is readable, but unpostable, you can still ask for your credit back (because you received an unpostable book and can't repost it) and keep it to read, if you want to.

Yes, hopefully she will see that it is unpostable.  Eventhough it was not hard to miss, I understand that sometimes things are overlooked.  I will tell her that I will mail it back once I receive the credits.  Thank you all.

Since she is willing to "pay" to have it mailed back I would. It is after all her book (since you say you got your credit back). Keeping all the credits and not mailing it back might make you the target of a PBS investigation.

Whether she posts it or not isn't part of the question. If she wants to spend all of her credits getting the silly thing returned to her - seems to be her problem. Your problem is that it is her book, since you haven't "paid" for it with a credit.

wc

You gotta give her points for sheer hard-headedness:P  I think a lot of times it boils down to denial - they simply won't believe they sent a damaged book until they see it.  But of course that could lead to a whole other can of worms with them claiming you damaged the book.  Some people just refuse to step up & take responsibility.  You know she just didn't check it thoroughly enough for damage, and you know she knows she didn't do it as well.  I'm always skeptical about returns, just because I don't think there's anything to be gained from it.  If she needs evidence so badly that she's willing to give up the extra credit to get, she'll likely convince herself someone will want the book, or there must be some other explanation for the problem than she sent out an unpostable.  Or it could be that she just doesn't buy into the idea that posting an unpostable means that it's correct for her to end up empty-handed - yet that's basically what the help docs say on the matter.  I'd push her on the issue of your lost credit & once I had it, I'd tell her there's no need for the other credit because book is going to Goodwill. 

It is after all her book (since you say you got your credit back).

Credit refunds don't revert ownership of the book back to the sender.  It just replaces the credit you lost so that you can order a postable copy.  All she had to do in the first place was send one, and both parties would have been happy.

Wayne, she did pay for it with a credit. She has yet to see the credit return for the book, let alone the credit to mail it back. The sender just said she'd give her the two credits if it was mailed back. So technically it is still Tricia's book.

By PBS standards a credit is worth between 3.45 (the cost to buy a credit) and 4.50 (what you save at PBS-shown on your MY Account page). There IS a monetary value on the book. If you return your new TV to the store for a refund, you don't get to keep the TV.

If she wants the book back, send it (possibly with a message to the team that it may be reposted). After all, she may think YOU are the one scamming HER. (maybe the situation will show up here in the fourm!!!).

If the book is still in her possession it is her book, whether her original credit has been returned or not. Being that it belongs to the person who has possession of it, she can choose whether to return any credit paid for return postage and keep the book, or keep the credit and return the book. Just because the sender has buddied a credit doesn't make it their book until it has been returned to them. It wouldn't be right to keep the second credit for return postage and not send the book back, but there is the option of returning the second credit. No one should feel obligated to return a book just because they have been given an additional credit to do so. either way, it is still your property and your choice.

Wayne, I really wish you would become more familiar with the help documents. This isn't really a matter or opinion, nor is it about what happens when you return a TV.

"Remember that the requestor is not required to send the book back at his or her expense.   There is more information about this below.  The sender of a problem book does risk losing credit, book and postage; this is the incentive NOT to send problem books."

"All problem transactions, once they have been marked "Received with a Problem", will be archived in your Transaction Archive.  The sender DOES get credit when the book is marked received with a problem.  The credit should be refunded to the requestor if the problem described is accurate.   We can't intercede in individual problems, but if an account shows a pattern of problem sending, we will intervene.  In all cases of Problem transactions, the receiver does NOT have to send the book back to the sender."

By PBS standards a credit is worth between 3.45 (the cost to buy a credit) and 4.50 (what you save at PBS-shown on your MY Account page). There IS a monetary value on the book. If you return your new TV to the store for a refund, you don't get to keep the TV.

If she wants the book back, send it (possibly with a message to the team that it may be reposted). After all, she may think YOU are the one scamming HER. (maybe the situation will show up here in the fourm!!!).

Wayne, the help docs clearly state that a lost book + the loss of a credit is the incentive for not sending unpostable books.  Just a quick translation -  you lose the book you sent out plus the postage money you spent to mail it, and *hopefully* the experience will serve as a permanent reminder to check your books thoroughly for damage before you mail them to someone.  Possession is nine-tenths of PBS law.  It's Tricia's book - to do with as she pleases - until she burns it, gives it away, donates it, or decides she wants to mail it back to this sender.  PERIOD.

In fact, before I even joined PBS, I downloaded all the help files that I could (I must have 99% of them) and printed them. I didn't join until I had read them all and decided that I could/would abide by the rules; and I do to the best of my ability and sometimes to my own detriment. (I despair that any of the last 20 or 30 of my unpostables will ever be seen by those who want them - but I consider them unpostable.

The issue is that the rules say "You are not obligated to return the problem item at your expense," - the question is SHOULD I. Tricia didn't ask if the rules say she has to send it back- she asked SHOULD she.
Some say yes - some say no.

A word about "rules". Seems to me the rules are stated for ME to FOLLOW. As a mere member it is my responsibility to follow the rules, it is not my right to enforce the rules. That is why we have the PBS team.
Tricia has already said it is not in her opinion a postable book and wants her credit back. She should get her credit back. We still have not answered her question of whether or not she WANTS to send it back.

First, get both credits before mailing the book back. Never send back a book without getting compensated first. Otherwise, she may decide to send you nothing if she still disagrees with your RWAP, or the book could go lost. Then you're out your first credit, the second credit and the book when it wasn't your fault to begin with.

Second, don't worry about what happens to the book. If she reposts it and it gets RWAP again, the site can see what went on. Plus, there are other places than here to post books, and she could always post the book with description at the Book Bazaar and still get a credit for it.

If you have no trouble sending the book back, get the credits and send it back. What she does then is up to her, not you. You have no idea what she's going to do with the book, and until she see's it for sure, she probably doesn't really know either.

Wayne, that doesn't mean that it is right for you to suggest that the OP should return the book lest she be taken as a scammer. The rules say she is well within her right to keep the book and the credit. Should she return the book? The answer to that question is that it is HER choice. There is no reason for you or anyone else to try and guilt her into sending it back. If she feels uncomfortable doing so then she does not have to. End of story.

Should she return the book? The answer to that question is that it is HER choice.

But, Tricia ASKED what people think.  She wants to know what OTHERS THINK her choice should be.

There is no guilt here.

Wayne - I agree with you that it's a member's responsibility to follow the rules and NOT to try to enforce them.  Absolutely.  Far too often I see people posting about what they can do to teach someone a lesson they'll not soon forget, because they sent an unpostable & responded badly to the problem.  If the situation warrants some sort of action beyond the RWAP procedure, I think the appropriate action is ALWAYS to let PBS handle it.

As to what's a rule & what is just your opinion - you said that if Tricia got her credit back, the book then belongs to the sender.  That's not true, and that's what is actually contrary to the site rules.  Not that Tricia is breaking any rules if she decides to send it back, but that according to the rules, it's her choice whether she does it or not, because it's still her book - even with the credit refund.

As to what's a rule & what is just your opinion - you said that if Tricia got her credit back, the book then belongs to the sender.  That's not true, and that's what is actually contrary to the site rules

Exactly. If you are aware that your opinion is the opposite of the rules, perhaps it would be nice to acknowledge that fact. As someone who spends a good deal of time trying to help members interpret the rules it really frustrates me to see someone (potentially) confusing people by stating their opinions as fact. 

Exactly. If you are aware that your opinion is the opposite of the rules, perhaps it would be nice to acknowledge that fact. As someone who spends a good deal of time trying to help members interpret the rules it really frustrates me to see someone (potentially) confusing people by stating their opinions as fact.

Trish ASKED do you think I should send it back. The rules say she it not obligated to do that. To answer her and say that she is not obligated to send it begs the question. To say that I or you would or would not send it back because of this or that IS an opinion - and what Trish was looking for. To say that I would  send it back (with the addl credit) is NOT opposite of the rules. You don't need to interpret the rules to help Trish - all you have to do is dare state your opinion.

Somtimes there are extenuating circumstances. As a rank newbie here I received a book that was water damaged but it was the second half of the book and I didn't notice it until I was into reading it and saw a small dog's or cat's pawprints on page 48. I then asked my tour guide how to handle it, and following her instructions PMed the sending member, explained and asked for my credit to be returned. Because I had not marked it received with a problem, the member felt free to refuse saying he had no pets and the book was in perfect condition when he mailed it. Again asking the tour guide how to handle repostin if at all, she suggested PMing any requester with a full explanation. That's what I did and the book was requested---it was a popular WL book---the requesting ember PMed that she'd like the book anyway even if she couldn't repost it. She didn't give me a red X and seemed satisfied with the condition of the book.

Since then I have upgraded my own requester conditions and check books more throoughly before marking them received. And since then I have received an unlistable book, it had a pin hole in the bottom of every page, but it was a book I planned to keep so it didn't matter. Conversely some senders have been unable to meet my requester conditions and I have been unable to read a few WL books (so far) because of it. But that's the way it goes----six of one and half dozen of another. Although I do wish there was some way to not get anymore books from the fellow who sent me the water-damaged & pawprinted one. But there appears to be no choice of sender on PBS.

And you're still missing the point, Wayne...  Nobody cares one way or the other about you giving another member your opinion on something.  If your opinion is that she should return the book, fabulous, glad to hear it, blah-blah-blah.  Liesl was simply saying that it would be better for all concerned, & the help forum in general, if you don't tell a member that what you think is right - that the book belongs to the sender due to the credit refund - is a rule when it clearly is not.

The only thing I find in the help files about "owning" a book is answering the question "Do We have to send the books back" under Club Basics:

Once you receive a book from PBS, it is yours. You can repost it here for another member to request, keep it, or give it away. Similarly, any book you send out to another PBS member is gone from you forever--and earns you a credit to order a book you haven't read!


That does not really answer the question since credits have passed. If there IS an entry in the help files that says a book does not pass back to the control of the sender if they refund a credit, please send it to me - PM or here and I offer apologies in advance.

Absent that, seems to me the sender at least should have the opportunity to request it back (and pay) if for nothing more than putting it through the paper shredder and making it into kitty litter.

The rules are clear, though, that the requestor is under no obligation to send it back.

If there IS an entry in the help files that says a book does not pass back to the control of the sender if they refund a credit, please send it to me -

I think it's pretty clear. If you mark a book RWAP and get your credit back, it's still the receiver's book. The receiver does not have to agree to send it back, sending it back has no baring on the original complaint and whether the credit should be returned or not, and the receiver may ask for a second credit if they agree to return it.

The sender does have the opportunity to request the book back, but the reciver doesn't have to agree to do so. Nothing says they can't ask, but they should also be prepared to pay for postage.

http://www.paperbackswap.com/help/search.php?terms=received+with+a+problem

If you receive a book with an "unofficial problem" as listed below you should mark it received normally and note the problem on the Book Received/Survey page.  You are not obligated to return the problem item at your expense, but if the sender gives you an extra credit or postage to do so, of course you may.

http://www.paperbackswap.com/help/search.php?terms=received+with+a+problem

• A requestor does NOT have to return the item in a "problem" transaction
  • if the sender wants the item back, he or she should send postage or a credit to pay for its return.

Not have to, not obliged to. As the requestor you may send the book back if you so chose.

Now, getting the second credit for shipping it back and not shipping it is something different. But no one has to bother sending the book back if they don't want to, and the sender doesn't have the right to demand the book back or not return the credit. They either return the credit and then can ask for return of the book. They're not going to get far if they don't pay for postage, though.