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Topic: What do you do when...

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Subject: What do you do when...
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:34 PM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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the sender basically accuses you of lying about the book?

Subject: lying about what?
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:36 PM ET
Member Since: 2/11/2007
Posts: 808
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The condition or the contents?

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:38 PM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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The condition. I offered to take photos for her already.

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:39 PM ET
Member Since: 2/18/2009
Posts: 158
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It depends on the situation.  What is the context?

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:41 PM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
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"I am sorry that you feel that there is a problem with the book. I purchased this book new and have only read it once. The spine may have some wear, which is acceptable, however it was not cleaved. I'd be willing to refund your credit if you'd like to return that book to me at your expense. Once I receive the book and if it is not Paperbackswap acceptable, I will donate it to the literacy chapter in my area and keep it off Paperbackswap circulation. Thanks."

Obviously I'm not going to use names/SN's.

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:47 PM ET
Member Since: 6/25/2007
Posts: 5,637
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That happened to me recently. I took pictures, sent her a link to them, and she still denied that there was damage.

There isn't much you can do, other than send him/her the relevant help center docs re: returning the book to the sender and how if that is what they want, they need to send money or an extra credit to cover postage.

I would also include in a PM that you will mark the swap as unresolved after a week, if the problem is not handled to your satisfaction (credit returned or postage sent to return the book).



Last Edited on: 3/10/09 1:47 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 1:55 PM ET
Member Since: 10/6/2007
Posts: 376
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This is a typical response, I'm afraid, and one you just have to suck up and take. You don't have to send the book back to them and if they want it, they need to give you an extra credit - one for the unpostable book they sent you, and one to cover return postage. Or you can mark the problem unresolved if they don't resolve it to your satisfaction, and offer it as unpostable if you like. You don't have to reply to any accusations but if you do, you should make it very neutral and polite.

Apparently the cleaved spine thing can be sort of debatable (per another thread in this forum) but if you feel it's definitely cleaved, and want your credit back, just tell the sender that. She has a few choices: she can take no action; she can refund your credit; she can refund your credit and give you an additional credit to cover return postage so you can return it. I think the standard operating procedure for you would be that you should keep the book unless she both refunds the credit and gives you an addl credit (or maybe paypal funds) to cover return postage.

I've recently had 2 rwap, one accused me of lying and one apologized. Since both were water damage and still readable, I didn't demand a refund of credit (and therefore did not get one either); I marked one unresolved and one resolved. In both cases, another copy was put in my list but I canceled because I can still read (and will offer as unpostable after I'm done).

Good luck, and sorry you got an upostable book.

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 2:01 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,958
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The other thread ended with a clarification (from PBS) about cleaved spines (I'm going to paraphrase)

Basically, if the book opens to a particular page (even becasue of spine damage) that is OK as long as all of the pages are still securely attached.

If the pages are loose or coming loose, that is when it crosses into unpostable.

I'll try to find the link for you. OK, here it is:  This thread

 



Last Edited on: 3/10/09 2:05 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 2:14 PM ET
Member Since: 9/13/2007
Posts: 2,520
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I would just take pictures anyway and send them a link, along with the applicable parts of the help documents quoted (parts about no cleaved spine and how you are not required to send the book back). I would end it by letting them know that if you don't hear back from them in a week you will be marking the problem as unresolved (which adds an additional black mark to their account).
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 2:19 PM ET
Member Since: 7/18/2008
Posts: 1,051
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[quote]The other thread ended with a clarification (from PBS) about cleaved spines (I'm going to paraphrase)

Basically, if the book opens to a particular page (even becasue of spine damage) that is OK as long as all of the pages are still securely attached.

If the pages are loose or coming loose, that is when it crosses into unpostable.

I'll try to find the link for you. OK, here it is:  This thread[/quote]

 

That only obtains to books that may open to a page but have no spine damage. This book is cracked through to the paper of the outside binding.

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 2:35 PM ET
Member Since: 11/11/2005
Posts: 5,238
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I wouldn't necessarily say that the definition of a cleaved spine is debatable, but I would say that I lot of PBS members probably don't understand the definition.  They think a broken spine is the same thing as a cleaved spine - but it's not.   A broken spine can easily become a cleaved spine, however, if the book isn't handled carefully.

I think that this is an instance where the damage could happen during shipment.  I can easily see that if a book's spine is only broken when wrapped and mailed, it could become a cleaved spine during the shipping process.   We all know that the PO doesn't necessarily handle books sent by Media Mail carefully.   I'm not saying that's the case here, but I can see it happening. 



Last Edited on: 3/10/09 4:07 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 2:45 PM ET
Member Since: 12/29/2008
Posts: 6,378
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I will say that the last couple of books I have received in the mail have been smushed diagonally in the wrapper during shipment (I don't really know how to explain this, but basically the bottom or the top of the book gets pushed to the side so that it arrives with the spine on a slant).  I wonder if this results in cleaved spines with books that may already be showing wear from regular use?  Just a thought - and while I hate to blame the PO, the rough handling could put a used book over the edge.

And not that it helps, but I think you should get your credit back!

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 2:49 PM ET
Member Since: 1/16/2008
Posts: 397
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Personally I would reply with links to pics of the book & say that she can look for herself & see the book is clearly unpostable based on the guidelines (list applicable guidelines).  As to returning the book to her, that you'd be happy to (assuming of course that you are willing to) as soon as you receive 2 credits, 1 to clear up the RWAP & 1 for the return shipping as per the guidelines (again list applicable guidelines).  And that you'll expect her decision & credit(s) by X date, at which time you will mark the transaction as resolved/unresolved based on her.

From the help docs-

Binding:

  • Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book
  • If the book tends to open at a particular page, this is OKAY
  • Small amount of fraying or denting at top or bottom is OKAY

You are not obligated to return the problem item at your expense, but if the sender gives you an extra credit or postage to do so, of course you may. 

IMO it's pretty clear no separation mean none, zero, zip, nada.  That said, I've received lots of books that have small amounts of seperation & I've pased that off as USPS's gentle touch & add to my list of unpostables, but ones that are cracked completely to where they open to be like 2 seperate books- those I think were unpostable before they were sent off.

Date Posted: 3/10/2009 3:25 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
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FROM PBS: We would not consider a pinhole to be a cleaved spine. Books that fall open to a specific
page are postable, and almost every paperback book that does that has at least some small separations.

What matters here is if the pages are securely attached. If they are likely to fall out on the next reading, then the book should not be posted. We really cannot clarify this any further. We need members to use their common sense and best judgment about whether a book is about to fall apart or not. This is just not something we can judge without having the books in our hands.

From the help docs-

Binding:

  • Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book
  • If the book tends to open at a particular page, this is OKAY
  • Small amount of fraying or denting at top or bottom is OKAY

 

I can see that other people are interpreting the help docs to mean zero spearation. Since that's what it says. It seems to me from the clarification that PBS already made that small separations must be OK. Since they say so specifically.

I stand by my original paraphrase. Small separations can be interpreted as OK to post. If the pages are securely attached.

Edited to say: Although, Erin, you say the book is only held together by the paper on the spine, obviously that is not a small separation, so you should probably get your credit back. I also believe though, like other posters say, that I think that could happen in the mail. Especially to a book where the binding might be brittle already. Although, the fact that it might have happened in the mail doesn't excuse the other member from accusing you of lying about the book. I wouldn't be too happy about that either.

 



Last Edited on: 3/10/09 3:37 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 3/10/2009 10:54 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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I don't know if this helps - but my experience is - the tighter a book is wrapped - the safer it usually is in the USPS system.  I have received oneor 2 books that have been "warped" as you describe - I think!  It looked to me as if the book had been under opposite forces under pressure during a tight confinement and something had to give.  It was still readable and postable as far as I was concerned.  It doesn't help if the book is one that has been recently published because the materials are getting shoddier as time goes by.  You might try to put the book under a tight weight and within a tight conformation somehow which might bring it back closer to its original shape.  Putting bent books under lots of heavier books on a solid surface has helped some of mine.

Ruth

Date Posted: 3/11/2009 3:14 PM ET
Member Since: 12/29/2008
Posts: 6,378
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Ruth, I think you are exactly right - the smushing (again, for want of a better word) seems to happen with packaging that is not as tightly wrapped around the book.  I've been lucky that the books I've received seem to have survived this harsh treatment, but I could also see that it would result in some problems.

Date Posted: 3/11/2009 3:48 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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Is it a newer book? I've noticed that my newer PPB's always seem to fall open all the way to the "spine". When I look at the binding from the top or bottom, the bindings don't have that thick layer of glue anymore. It's like the paper is bound directly to the cover, and not necessarily to the other pages. So when I'm reading it, I can see the cover between the pages if I've creased the spine, but the pages are still firmly connected to the cover. If this is the case with your book, I wouldn't consider it a "cleaved spine" or faulty book. Bindings on newer books seem different from before.

Edited to try to get it to make more sense...



Last Edited on: 3/11/09 3:49 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/12/2009 9:07 AM ET
Member Since: 5/29/2007
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Last Edited on: 1/14/14 3:17 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/12/2009 9:19 AM ET
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Last Edited on: 10/4/10 8:39 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 3/12/2009 1:07 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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That only obtains to books that may open to a page but have no spine damage. This book is cracked through to the paper of the outside binding.

Crack & pinhole binding separations between pages are spine damage, and that's what the PBS team basically meant when they said "Books that fall open to a specific page are postable, and almost every paperback book that does that has at least some small separations."  What's important there is whether the pages securely attached & not in danger of coming loose & falling out.  If the spine is cleaved, and that can be referred to as broken, even though it isn't technically correct to use that term (some booksellers might even use the term "broken" in reference to spine creases), then the binding is fully separated from top to bottom, and the only thing that is keeping the book in one piece is the cover.  Basically, if the cover were removed, you'd have two separate pieces.  There are variations that aren't as pronounced as this, but this is an image of a book with a cleaved spine:

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/rubberducky102760/8_299.jpg

Some books will be fully separated, but the back of the cover won't be completely detached from the binding adhesive deeper into the cleft so that you see that wide expanse of the back side of the cover (sometimes you'll only see a very thin strip of cover) but there is a full, complete separation of the binding material, and you can see the back of the cover from top to bottom.  With crack & pinhole separations, you see little intermittent sections of the cover through the slashes or pinholes, or sometimes there are just pinholes in the binding and you can't actually see the cover:

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/rubberducky102760/2762798875_d3dec5c5e0.jpg

Again, what matters is whether or not the pages are securely attached & aren't in imminent danger of falling out, and that's where you can interpret the help docs literally; where they say "No loose or missing text pages".  "Must be intact [binding], with no separation on the inside or outside of the book", according to the clarification from the PBS team, doesn't include cracks & pinholes, as long as the pages are "securely attached" - again, per the PBS team's clarification.  These distinctions are where PBS expects members to use "common sense", but you always have to keep in mind that common sense is subjective.  It's a point that can be argued to death, and receivers & senders may never come to a resolution on it, if they feel strongly enough that they are in the right.  In those cases, the best you can do is mark the RWAP accordingly, and leave it to PBS to decide, IF they ever have cause to review it.  If it is one of many unresolved RWAPs on a sender's record, obviously it will carry more weight than if it is an isolated incident.  I think that even if a sender is in error with regard to the postability of a book, PBS probably does allow members to make at least a few mistakes before they take away their membership.

Date Posted: 3/12/2009 2:06 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,958
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Thank you Kim. Your explanation is very clear!

Date Posted: 3/13/2009 10:40 AM ET
Member Since: 3/19/2007
Posts: 62
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I've had this happen as well...and as others have said the only thing you can do is take photos and advise the sender what you want and mark the issue unresolved if they don't comply.  As a rule, I take photos of any damages that come in and reply in RWAP PM with a link to them.  Even with photos, on one book with the cover off and pages coming loose, the sender first claimed they didn't send it that way, and then claimed that it was a poorly made book.  Either way, he accused me of trying to scam him, that I probably read it already and would be posting it soon.  I never got my credit back and marked it unresolved (it is now on my unpostables list).

This is the worst type of swap and hopefully you won't get too many of them!   OH and I would never return a book without 2 credits in advance (1 for the book and 1 for postage). 

Lauren