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Topic: What do I do?

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Subject: What do I do?
Date Posted: 10/1/2012 10:43 PM ET
Member Since: 1/21/2009
Posts: 11,794
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I ordered a book and when it came, it has stains along the edges which creep into and onto the text pages.  I would never have sent this book to anyone.  I RWAPed it and PMed the sender asking for my credit back since no stains are allowed.  And I reminded her if she wished the book returned, she must provide the return postage.  This is her reply:

Dear Priscilla, I will refund your credit when the book is received back in the condition it was sent to you. These stain are the most minor at best. And not as I recall given by your desription. The book was given to me by the author and I have taken care very well as I do all of my books. While these stains might not meet your standards, as a book seller since 1987 and book swapper. There were no stains that I would consider a problem if I received this book on a swap. So with that said please return the book and I will gladly refund your credit.

 My Reply:

 

I am sorry you take this stance. There are stains , quite a few on the book. The site states very plainly no stains. See the book condition for swappability. It does not say that a few or some are okay. I will not return the book unless you pay for it as per PBS rules. This book is unpostable per PBS rules. I hope we can resolve this otherwise I will need to mark it unresolved.  
Comments or help, please.

 

Date Posted: 10/1/2012 11:02 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,859
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If she doesn't refund your credit within 5 days or so, I would forward the messages to PBS, even though they normally do not get involved in RWAPS book issues, in this case the sender has admitted to the stains, so they may force her to refund you.
Date Posted: 10/1/2012 11:05 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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Give her(him) appropriate time to respond (about a week). If you do not hear back, check your Credit Registry to see if the credit was returned silently. People like to do that when they don't want to admit to doing wrong. If the credit was returned, mark follow up as resolved. If the credit is not returned, I would follow it up with a final PM telling them that their silence tells me that they have decided they do not want the book back (paying the return shipping per the site's policy) and that I will be marking the transaction unresolved which result in a double black mark on their account. I will also be forwarding their PM to the site since it admits to sending out a book with stains on it even though the site postability rules clearly state that NO stains are allowed.

Then I would send the PM to the site through Feedback via the Contact Us link. Normally, the transaction would end at marking it unresolved. But since this member admits in their PMs that the book was stained, the site may step in. They rarely get involved, but they will when a sender admits they sent an unpostable or incorrect book and still refuses to correct the problem.

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 12:03 AM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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What they said yes  feel free to quote from the rules in your pm.

From PBS swappability guidelines:

Overall Condition:

  • No damage at all from water or other liquid
  • Not soiled
  • No stains (exception for cookbooks--see below)
  • No mold
  • no highlighting, underlining or writing on text pages (exception for Textbooks/Workbooks and travel guidebooks --see below

(note that the guidelines do not say light stains or only a few stains...but, no stains)

And regarding the return of RWAP books:

  • Remember that the requestor is not required to send a problem book back at his or her expense.   The sender of a problem book does risk losing credit, book and postage; this is the incentive not to send problem books.
    • If you want a problem book back you can provide a stamped, self-addressed envelope to the requestor by snail mail (or you can give the requestor an extra Book Credit to compensate for postage, if both of you agree on that).
    • Refund and postage compensation must be completed first - before the requestor returns the book (= it is not OK to wait to refund credit until getting a problem book back in the mail, or to expect the requestor to send the book back before getting postage compensation as described above).

 

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 8:04 AM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2012
Posts: 66
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This is a general question not really directed towards you or your case however, since its brought up, what does it really matter about stains, honestly, if you can read the pages, whats the big deal?? That being said, I understand that if you cant read the pages, then stains are a big deal and the book shouldnt be posted. But I am seeing so many "complaints about minor stuff lately that it truly boggles my mind how this site stays in b open  with so many being so darn nicpicky. Just my opinion

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 8:50 AM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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It matters Michele because its not allowed on the site. Whether someone agrees with those rules does not matter, if they don't like the rules they can't take their books elsewhere. The rules say NO stains so the books should never be posted. PERIOD. The receiver should never be stuck with the decision to lose the credit or also break the rules. Minor/major is never a determining factor postable/not postable is. If someone has a book that they think someone might want anyways there is always the Book Bazaar Forum, but the system has rules.

As far as why people don't want other people stains, personally I find it discusting. I don't know what it is and I don't want to be handling someone elses food/feces/snot/bodily fluids whether I can read through it or not.



Last Edited on: 10/2/12 8:52 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/2/2012 10:50 AM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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It's important Michele b/c the site has established minimum guidelines for swapability/postability.  Other sites have attempted a system that allows members to rate (describe) the book condition and/or rate the sender's reputation...most of those have failed. 

At PBS we don't rate sending members (they are assumed to be in good standing b/c otherwise their account is suspended and can not actively swap) and requesters do not have to wade through a confusing description of book condition for every book they request.  If it's posted FIFO you may safely assume the book meets the minimum site requirements, and the sender is going to uphold their part of the transaction.

Books move through the FIFO system based on who requested/offered first...wishlists and bookshelves move in an orderly fashion based on seniority (who requested & who posted the book first).  Not a hodpodge of who is willing to accept a book in (to use other site verbage) 'poor' condition (missing covers, damaged text pages, water damage, etc.).  This method also removes much of the guesswork...moderate stains to one member might be unreadable to another member.  No stains & no liquid damage = no guessing and no misunderstandings.

When you've been a member longer and see for yourself how it works...you'll understand the benefits!   Many PBS members have tried other book swap sites, and have come to realize PBS is the best!



Last Edited on: 10/2/12 10:57 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 10/2/2012 12:19 PM ET
Member Since: 7/7/2007
Posts: 4,815
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Michele sez:

<<what does it really matter about stains, honestly, if you can read the pages, whats the big deal??>>

Aside from other members have rightly said about meeting the site's requirements, stains can turn into mold and/or attract silverfish, cockroaches, mice and other critters, all of which can decimate a book collection.  It is the same reasoning used by libraries when they ask users not to bring in food.  One stained book can attract pests that will eat and damage other books, so it isn't just an asthetic issue.

 

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 2:21 PM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2005
Posts: 4,600
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Well yeah--who knows WHAT the stain you're seeing is? If it's a food stain or (heaven forbid) something more gross, it can grow things, spread germs, etc. A liquid looking brown stain MIGHT be coffee...then again, it might be vomit splash, tobacco spit, liquidy cat diarrhea or gravy. Who knows? I do know I don't want a book with it on there, even if it's not obscuring the words.

Cheryl

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 2:41 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,859
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How many Cheeto fingerprints on pages are too many? (yes, I've gotten MORE than one Cheeto fingerprint books).

In my opinion, Cheeto fingerprints are nasty, and whoever is making them on books ought to keep those books for themselves (I really don't mind).

The reason that the rules say NO stains is because there is absolutely NO way to quantify how much/many small stains might be OK.

And some people apparently feel that Cheeto fingerprints are just fine in books.

One persons perfectly good and readable Cheeto fingerprinted book is someone else's nasty germ ridden plague book.

In real life, yes, I don't throw away books if they get a couple of drops of water on them, or if it gets some kind of small stain on it. However, I also don't trade them here anymore, because stained books are not allowed on this site.

And you would cry if I told you how many Wish Listed books I have lost to dog chewing. IMO, dog chewed books ought to be allowed to be posted (you know, as long as they are readable). After all, if I don't think dog chewed books are gross, why should anyone else?

I do buy books (and trade them) that have dirty page edges, because I have found that sandpaper will clean up page edges quite nicely, and I have been able to turn some extremely questionable books into very nice postable copies. But that's page edges.



Last Edited on: 10/2/12 2:46 PM ET - Total times edited: 3
Date Posted: 10/2/2012 3:56 PM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2012
Posts: 66
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Thank you for your responses.  I can see everyones point, since you the reciever dont know exactly what kind of stain it is.  It was just something I wondered and have often seen being talked about. 

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 4:24 PM ET
Member Since: 12/31/2009
Posts: 3,995
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I just wanted to add that your PM exchange was very polite. You said exactly what needed to be said. The ball is in the sender's court now. If they don't respond, or continue to give you a hard time, just contact TPTB as stated above.

Date Posted: 10/2/2012 8:01 PM ET
Member Since: 1/21/2009
Posts: 11,794
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Thank you all for your advice and support. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it.  I am waiting to see if she responds by the 5th, but something tells me she has no intention.  I can only hope. 

As far as your comment Michele, I joined PBS and have followed the rules to the letter.  If a person wants to belong to something, abide by its rules, please.  No stains is the rule; if your book has stains, there is a forum to post it in namely the Book Bazaar.  I do buy a number of used books for trade and for myself.  I would not have bought this book even if on clearance or sale.



Last Edited on: 10/3/12 6:55 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/3/2012 11:11 AM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2012
Posts: 66
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No offense but why do i feel like im getting bashed for my question, come on, it was a question and was answered. After seeing the responses, I can understand about the stains, that being said just because I had asked about it doesnt mean my books are stained or that I would list any that are.  

Priscilla, maybe its me but im misunderstanding your wording, if you are using You as in referring to me, please dont be presume that because I had asked the question that my list of books all have stains. However, I understand that You can be a general You.  I have read the rules, I am well aware of them and whats expected of me. That being said, I was curious to some things. To me, dont sweat the minor things, (water stains,yellowed pages, markings on pages, *if* the pages are still readable, but thats IMO.  (that doesnt mean I would list them, to me, if i receive them, no biggie.) But everyone is different. 

 

Date Posted: 10/3/2012 11:31 AM ET
Member Since: 9/25/2008
Posts: 3,906
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Sometimes you get your credit back after you mark the transaction unresolved. Senders of the bad books get so defensive and try to make us feel bad for calling them out on their bad book. I hope it gets resolved for you without much hassle.

Barb S. (okbye) - ,
Date Posted: 10/3/2012 1:05 PM ET
Member Since: 3/14/2011
Posts: 5,767
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 (that doesnt mean I would list them, to me, if i receive them, no biggie.) 

It is all of our responsibility to mark any unpostable books we receive properly, even if we aren't personally bothered by it. You can specify that you don't want your credit back if you receive a book like that but you still have to mark it RWAP and inform the sender, allowing people to send unpostable books weakens the whole system. That's in the rules too. (generic 'you', of course). I ordered a book recently and got a pm from the sender saying he just wanted to inform me there was some liquid damage and he wanted to let me know up front because some people were picky and complaining about his books and he didn't want any more RWAPs. I replied to him that he needed to cancel the order and not relist the book because it was unpostable, and if he was sending out books like that they are going to be marked as problems. The receivers weren't being picky, he was sending out unpostable books. We all can miss something or make a mistake but some people know it's there and just don't care or think they don't have to follow the rules or whatever reason they think it's ok to send unpostable books. If they aren't marked correctly they will continue to do so. 

Date Posted: 10/3/2012 6:59 PM ET
Member Since: 1/21/2009
Posts: 11,794
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Michele,

I was not referring to you.  But I have changed the wording to a person so as for it not to be taken personally. 

I have more followup about this but I think I will stop posting about it. 

Date Posted: 10/3/2012 10:40 PM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2012
Posts: 66
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thank you very much priscilla for explaining that it was a general You, I honestly didnt mean to start anything by asking a question. 

Date Posted: 10/4/2012 12:15 AM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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To me, dont sweat the minor things, (water stains,yellowed pages, markings on pages, *if* the pages are still readable, but thats IMO. (that doesnt mean I would list them, to me, if i receive them, no biggie.) But everyone is different.

Most of us aren't "sweating the minor stuff" either. We are just following the rules of the site and marking things as they should be. It does the site and its members no favors to let members get by with not following the rules (and not following its process ourselves by not marking things correctly) as allowing a member to think they can earn credits by posting stuff they shouldn't just begets more bad swaps. Helping them understand what they are sending isn't postable and why helps them become better swappers and they and their future receivers both have better swaps because of it.

Date Posted: 10/4/2012 12:37 AM ET
Member Since: 1/21/2009
Posts: 11,794
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Thank you, Melanie. I totally agree.
Subject: sent out a book three weeks ago no credit
Date Posted: 10/5/2012 3:56 PM ET
Member Since: 9/10/2008
Posts: 1
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I sent out a book with delevery conformation this person recieved the book i get on here today to find out this person cancled the book yesterday and they aloud it so I  recieved no credit and this person has my book also i contacted them the paper back swap team and i get no response from eather this is not right !!!!

Date Posted: 10/5/2012 7:50 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,194
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Patricia, the receiver can't "cancel" a transaction at any point after you've printed the wrapper. It sounds like maybe the book was marked "lost" by the system?

Delivery Confirmation just provides proof that a book is delivered, it doesn't provide proof that it was delivered correctly. That's why using DC from any source other than PBS with Credit Assurance doesn't really help a whole lot.

How long ago did you contact the receiver? Per the Help Center you should give them at least a week to get back to you. They could be out of town, looking for the book, or dealing with a family emergency. If they do not get back to you after that week and the book has been marked lost by the system, then you contact the site by sending in Feedback via the Contact Us link in the lower right under Company. Send them the DC information if it shows the book being delivered (even though it doesn't prove the book has been delivered correctly, if the other member refuses to communicate they may make a determination). Give the PBSTeam a few of days to look into the problem. They may be talking to the other member to find out what is going on.

The Team typically does not mitigate individual swaps and DC that is not bought through the site provides no Credit Assurance since the fees paid for the DC is what covers the cost of that.