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Topic: Wish-list Multiples thread in Bazaar: Non-postables?

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Gavia -
Subject: Wish-list Multiples thread in Bazaar: Non-postables?
Date Posted: 8/19/2012 7:17 PM ET
Member Since: 12/23/2009
Posts: 198
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I have a question about the  wish-list multiples   thread in the Bazaar forum.  This is the first time I've used that forum, so please excuse if this has been discussed before.  

I ordered two WL books from a member. When they arrived, one of the books (not a textbook) was heavily highlighted throughout, so that it is difficult to read.   It would not have been postable according to PBS rules.  If I had known about this, I would not have requested it.   So my question is:

Is it acceptable to post non-postable books on the multiple wish-list thread? If so, does the sender need to tell the requestor that the book is non-postable, and why?    Should I mark it "received with a problem?"  I kind of hate to do this since it's a book I was anxious to have, and I had a very pleasant exchange of messages with the member before the book arrived. 

 

Edited to correct subject wording



Last Edited on: 8/19/12 7:28 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/19/2012 7:43 PM ET
Member Since: 12/31/2009
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Yes, the same rules apply. Highlighting is not postable unless the sender asks for, and receives, your permission prior to sending it according to the "textbook exception" guidelines in the help docs.

Date Posted: 8/19/2012 7:49 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
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High.ighting is postable as long as the person notifies you before sending it, and receives a response indicating that it is ok to mail anyway. Mark it RWAP so that the person knows the proper way to mail something like that in the future.
Date Posted: 8/19/2012 11:00 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
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What they said yes  Either FIFO or forum deals, all books swapped at PBS are assumed to meet minimum posting criteria (swappability guidelines).  If members are offering unpostables or any variation thereof (textbooks, cookbooks, etc) they must follow the specific guidelines for those.  Which requires full disclosure of book condition and the approval of the requestor before mailing

So yes, if you were not notified the book is unpostable (and your approval gained) then you have grounds to RWAP.

If you watch the bazaar (and other book offereing threads) you will sometimes notice members offering unpostables, where they clearly list the book condition and their expectations (a credit to cover shipping, free with a book off their shelf, etc).  This is the proper way to swap unpostables; informed consent.



Last Edited on: 8/19/12 11:02 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Gavia -
Date Posted: 8/19/2012 11:39 PM ET
Member Since: 12/23/2009
Posts: 198
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Denise, I have often seen unpostables offered as such, which was another reason why I wondered whether the rules for Multiples were in some way different from those for other books.   I didn't want to report it RWAP if that were the case.

So thanks, everyone, for the clarification.  I have reported the book received with a problem, but I have not asked for my credit back, because I don't want to go to the trouble and expense of returning the book.  

 

Date Posted: 8/19/2012 11:55 PM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2008
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because I don't want to go to the trouble and expense of returning the book. 

You don't have to return a book if you ask for a credit return on a RWAP.  The sender can ask for the book to be returned, but must pay return postage or cover the postage cost by sending you another credit before you return it.  Otherwise you are not obligated to return the book.  Just keep this in mind if you have this come up in the future.

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 8:45 AM ET
Member Since: 9/25/2008
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The multiple wishlist book thread is very clear that all the books listed must be in postable condition. In the past I had a lot of problems receiving unpostables from there so I don't bother with it anymore. But that book should definately be a RWAP and ask for that credit returned. I'd also let the woman who manages the thread know about it.

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 9:22 AM ET
Member Since: 4/28/2009
Posts: 1,252
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The book was sent by me - I purchased the book just to repost and didn't notice that there was highlighting in this copy.  I promise to check better in the future.  I promptly returned Gavia's credit as soon as I logged in this morning  without a problem. 

The rules are right there at the top of the Multiple WL thread - all she needed to do was check them and then contact me.  I wish she had waited to hear back from me before she went and made this public as if there would be a problem.  I hope she marks this resolved as quickly as she came here to post.

I've mailed over 1400 books and this is only my 2nd book that has had someone mark RWAP (the first was claimed to have major water damage which it did not have when I mailed it - I had bought it new, read it and posted it in great condition) - I post many threads with deals in the Book Bazaar and I believe most of you have traded with me in the past and realize that anyone can make a mistake.

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 9:34 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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The rules are right there at the top of the Multiple WL thread - all she needed to do was check them and then contact me.  I wish she had waited to hear back from me before she went and made this public as if there would be a problem. 

No offense, but no one would have had any idea that you were the sender until you posted yourself. This forum is here for people who have questions about the site, and the OP had a question. I'm sorry you felt slighted or embarrassed, but she did nothing wrong.

Gavia -
Date Posted: 8/20/2012 9:56 AM ET
Member Since: 12/23/2009
Posts: 198
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Thanks, Caviglia.

                It was certainly far from my intention to embarass or offend Ann Marie, and it was just for that reason that I did not mention her name in my OP.   I believe I was polite both in my OP and in my pm to her this morning (which I sent before reading the latest posts on this forum).  

 Granted, I did not pm her before I reported the problem.  Perhaps I didn't read the rules carefully enough, because I didn't see where it says that I should have done so (but perhaps I should have intuited as much).  I did see that it says that no damaged books may be posted.   Even then, I posted my query here to be sure I was doing the right thing in reporting it.  If this happens again with any other book,   I will certainly pm the member before reporting a problem. 

And I immediately reported the problem resolved.

We can both learn a lesson from this incident, and I think we should shelve it at this point.  I have no hard feelings, Ann Marie, and I hope you don't.



Last Edited on: 8/20/12 9:57 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/20/2012 9:58 AM ET
Member Since: 4/28/2009
Posts: 1,252
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I know she did nothing wrong - and yes, I probably should have taken a deep breath and waited before posting.  My mistake.

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 10:02 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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Well, this is a delightful resolution! 

Sanity reigns.

 

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 10:18 AM ET
Member Since: 4/28/2009
Posts: 1,252
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No hard feelings - it's been resolved and as you say we can leave it at that. 

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 10:40 AM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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Thank you for taking care of the problem Ann Marie.

Gavia - the Wish List multiples is slightly different rules than the rest of the site and you can always PM Amanda or I (links to both of us in the rules in the first post) and ask if something you got was wrong.  The rule of thumb though, is that the books still need to follow the rules of the site.

Unpostables are not allowed to be offered in that thread. But, books that fall within the exceptions are postable - as long as they follow the exceptions. Had Ann Marie listed the book stating it had the highlighting it would have been ok, she would have been following the textbook exception and able to send the book with confirmation from you that it was OK. Since she didn't follow the exception, it was listed incorrectly, just like had she posted it in the system without the notification. Cookbooks with staining would be the same exception.

A book with water damage or a general fiction with stains would not get the same pass in the WL Multiples since there is no exception in the rules for that kind of damage and they would not be allowed in the WL Multiples thread at all. We do not even allow unpostables without an exception to be offered in there for free. If someone is receiving unpostable books from a member offering in that thread, they should let Amanda or I know so that we can deal with the sender. If a sender makes a habit of that kind of behavior in the WL Multiples thread, they will be banned from offering in the thread.



Last Edited on: 8/20/12 10:40 AM ET - Total times edited: 2
Barb S. (okbye) - ,
Date Posted: 8/20/2012 1:21 PM ET
Member Since: 3/14/2011
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I did want to note there is a thread for unpostable wishlist books so no one gets confused. Make sure you know which one you're in. It would also be a good place to post the book when you're done with it. :) 

BTW That was a very grown up disagreement. Well done. 

Gavia -
Date Posted: 8/20/2012 1:32 PM ET
Member Since: 12/23/2009
Posts: 198
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Thanks for mentioning that.  I wasn't aware there is a thread for unpostable WL books and I shall certainly check it out. (Wow, PBS has everything!).   I was kinda wondering what to do with this book, so that is a good idea.   I'll have to see if I have any other unpostable WLs lurking around the house.

 

 

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 2:59 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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You can post this book into the system as long as you follow the textbook exception. Post the book, when you get the request you PM the requester telling them the extent of the highlighting/underlining/writing and ask that they PM you back before the deadline letting you know if the the book OK to send or not. If they tell you it is not, you would need to cancel, if they say if is ok you are fine to send the book.

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 3:40 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,662
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You should also be able to advertise it back to the Wishlist multiples thread (should you wish to do so) as long as you describe the writing there, as well.

Gavia -
Date Posted: 8/20/2012 7:48 PM ET
Member Since: 12/23/2009
Posts: 198
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You can post this book into the system as long as you follow the textbook exception.

The thing is, it's not a textbook.   So I doubt it would qualify for the textbook exception, would it?

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 9:05 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,662
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There is a whole long help doc regarding this, but it basically boils down to any book can be a textbook.

Date Posted: 8/20/2012 10:25 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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The exception is actually for textbooks and workbooks, and many books are used as workbooks that are not tradtional textbooks. Since the exception requires communication and acceptance from the receiver prior to sending, no one can be surprised by a book showing up under the exception so the site allows any book to be posted under the exception, as long as the sender follows all the rules of the exception. Though the Help Document lays out the scenario that the fiction book that isn't a traditional textbook isn't accepted often, with Wish List books, people are often more likely to accept just to get the book to read.

What is the definition of a textbook?

Actually, the way the system and rules are designed, it does not matter what the "objective definition" of a textbook is.  The club members decide this - as long as the rules in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS are followed.  See the explanation and examples below.

If a member considers her book a textbook she may Post it with underlining/highlighting/writing on text pages, according to the "textbook exception" in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS; BUT since the textbook exception in theBook Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS require her to contact the requestor and obtain PM consent to the book's condition, she won't be in the position of sending a "stealth textbook" to someone who doesn't expect to receive one.

Examples/further explanation:

  • Member A posts an Economics 101 textbook - something that most people would clearly consider a textbook.   
  • Following the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS textbook exception rules, she sends a Personal Message to the requestor when she gets a request, describing the book's condition.
  • Chances are good that she will get PM consent from the requestor to send the book with highlighting/etc. 
  • Member B posts a novel (fiction) that she used in a class - something that most people would NOT consider a textbook.
    • Following the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS textbook exception rules, she sends a Personal Message to the requestor when she gets a request, describing the book's condition.
    • Chances are good that she will NOT get PM consent from the requestor to send the book with highlighting/etc.
    • If the requestor declines the book in its condition, Member B will have to cancel the request and repost her book.  It will go to the 'back of the line' for requests.  (If it is a Wish Listed book, it will be offered to the same wisher and the sender will again have to cancel.  She will have to wait for the wishing member to get a copy of this book from someone else before Member B can post her copy again.)

So, the farther the book is from a 'textbook' in common perception, the more likely it will be difficult to get consent to its condition.  Members in Member B's situation may encounter several declines, and will eventually realize that the book is not likely to be acceptable to the club in its condition.  Member B will stop trying to offer it as a "textbook"  and will consider it instead an unpostable/damaged book.

In this way, the club defines "textbook" on a case-by-case basis, and no one who is following the rules will be able to "surprise" another person with a highlighted/written-in/underlined book.



Last Edited on: 8/20/12 10:30 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Barb S. (okbye) - ,
Date Posted: 8/22/2012 6:24 PM ET
Member Since: 3/14/2011
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The thing is, it's not a textbook.   So I doubt it would qualify for the textbook exception, would it?

IMO no BUT many people here think any book can be a text book. To me just because a book is used in a class doesn't make it a text book, a novel is never a textbook as far as I'm concerned. The rules can't really be written any more specific though, it's not really something you can be that specific about, so it's within the rules to be entirely up to you. 

I used this example somewhere else recently - I can stick a flower in my arse and call myself a vase but that doesn't make it true. 

Date Posted: 8/22/2012 8:54 PM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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I can't remember now, but I think I may have been the person who received the clarification from TPTB. Their site, their rules, and they were very explicit in saying anything can use the textbook exception.  BTW - there is also a cookbook exception.

ETA - Here we go.



Last Edited on: 8/22/12 8:57 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Gavia -
Date Posted: 8/23/2012 10:54 AM ET
Member Since: 12/23/2009
Posts: 198
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Well, if anything can use the textbook exception, what's the point of having a textbook/cookbook rule?  In the case of non-fiction, as was the book referred to  in my OP, the very copious highlighting would suggest that this book may very well have been used in a course, if not in an actual classroom.

They might as well say that all highlighted books are unpostable, except with the prior approval of the requestor.    That would make things  a lot less confusing, IMO.

 

 

 

Date Posted: 8/23/2012 11:39 AM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,185
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Well, if anything can use the textbook exception, what's the point of having a textbook/cookbook rule? 

Well, not anything can be posted under the cookbook rule, only the textbook/workbook rule. I think (and this is only my assumption) they'd rather a majority of people not post books with writing, highlighting, or underlining. But they do give an exception to that rule that allows people to post the books, but puts the control in the sender's hands because they really are the only ones who can determine if the book has been used as a textbook/workbook.

Having it set up the way it is, it probably keeps some of the written in/highlighted/underlined books out of the system because some people see the rule and don't go further to see the exception applies to any book. Me, I'd assume any book with writing/highlighting/underlining in it was used as a workbook, even if it was one person sitting there by themselves, they are using it as a workbook for some purpose.

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