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Topic: Wish List Question

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Subject: Wish List Question
Date Posted: 10/24/2010 3:45 PM ET
Member Since: 12/3/2005
Posts: 9
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I posted a book that is wish listed by 16 people. It has highlighting. The 1st person on the list has it on automatic order, and when I get the order from her, I PM'd her to see if the highlighting is OK, but she never answers. I sent 2 PMs and finally cancelled, I don't want to send it if she doesn't confirm it's OK. She hasn't listed anything new since February. I tried waiting a couple of weeks and listing again, but it automatically goes to her again. Is there a way to bypass her and go to the next person?

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 3:48 PM ET
Member Since: 7/31/2007
Posts: 2,690
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no, there is no way to go past her to the next person, you have to wait until someone else posts the book.  Even if she answers and says she does not want the book, you will have to be the one to cancel and you'll have to wait til she gets offered the book by someone else.

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 4:00 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,852
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You could try offering it in the Book Bazaar, it is OK to offer an unpostable WL book for a credit there.

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 4:17 PM ET
Member Since: 10/30/2009
Posts: 962
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Regardless of if it's wishlisted, I would not post it through the system.  It has highlighting and can be viewed as RWAP even if the receiver says it's ok.  I would not take a chance that way.  I would post it in the bazaar and mark it as unpostable due to the highlighting.  Better safe than sorry.

 

Kellie

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 4:25 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,852
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Kellie,

Highlighted books and books with writing in them may be posted FIFO if you PM the requestor and obtain their permission before mailing. The OP is following the rules by posting and then PMing (and cancelling if she gets no repsonse).

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 4:56 PM ET
Member Since: 8/26/2006
Posts: 9,336
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You're doing everything right, Donna.  Sara's suggestion of offering it for a credit in the book Bazaar is a good one. 

If you post it again to the person who has it on auto-request, you could include your PBS nickname in your message to her about the highlighting.  That way she could find you later through the membership directory.  (She may be a member who doesn't check her account too often.)  If she doesn't want the book with highlighting, and she's willing, you could ask her to add a Requestor Condition to her account, turn it on, accept your offer, and then you could click that your book doesn't meet her RC, and you'd be passed on to the next wisher.  She'd then go back into her acount settings to turn the RC off.  Might be more than she's willing to do, though.

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 5:14 PM ET
Member Since: 10/30/2009
Posts: 962
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Sara,

I cannot find anywhere that it states it is acceptable to do that.  Could you tell me where I can find that please?  I have some books that have (minimal) writing that does not affect readability, but haven't posted them because of the no writing rule.  If I can find it in writing that says it is acceptable, I would post them.  I want to have back up in case someone says yes they will accept it, then marks it RWAP anyway.

Please let me know.  Thank you.

Added: 

Patty,

If the requestor does that with RCs, will she lose her place in line?  Or would it stay the same because the sender is technically cancelling because of the RCs?  Just curious how that would work.

Thank you!

Kellie



Last Edited on: 10/24/10 5:15 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/24/2010 5:43 PM ET
Member Since: 9/25/2008
Posts: 3,897
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Kellie, there is the textbook exception to the rule. So if your book has writing/highlighting you can post it. Then PM the person requesting it and let them know that the book has writing in it and whether they want the book still or for you to cancel the request.

 

If a member considers her book a textbook she may Post it with underlining/highlighting/writing on text pages, according to the "textbook exception" in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS; BUT since the textbook exception in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS require her to contact the requestor and obtain PM consent to the book's condition, she won't be in the position of sending a "stealth textbook" to someone who doesn't expect to receive one.

Examples/further explanation:

  • Member A posts an Economics 101 textbook - something that most people would clearly consider a textbook.   
  • Following the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS textbook exception rules, she sends a Personal Message to the requestor when she gets a request, describing the book's condition.
  • Chances are good that she will get PM consent from the requestor to send the book with highlighting/etc. 
  • Member B posts a novel (fiction) that she used in a class - something that most people would NOT consider a textbook.
    • Following the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS textbook exception rules, she sends a Personal Message to the requestor when she gets a request, describing the book's condition.
    • Chances are good that she will NOT get PM consent from the requestor to send the book with highlighting/etc.
    • If the requestor declines the book in its condition, Member B will have to cancel the request and repost her book.  It will go to the 'back of the line' for requests.  (If it is a Wish Listed book, it will be offered to the same wisher and the sender will again have to cancel.  She will have to wait for the wishing member to get a copy of this book from someone else before Member B can post her copy again.)

So, the farther the book is from a 'textbook' in common perception, the more likely it will be difficult to get consent to its condition.  Members in Member B's situation may encounter several declines, and will eventually realize that the book is not likely to be acceptable to the club in its condition.  Member B will stop trying to offer it as a "textbook"  and will consider it instead an unpostable/damaged book.

In this way, the club defines "textbook" on a case-by-case basis, and no one who is following the rules will be able to "surprise" another person with a highlighted/written-in/underlined book.

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 5:45 PM ET
Member Since: 6/29/2007
Posts: 17,154
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Kellie,

It is a part of the textbook rule.  Since so many schools and colleges are using a LOT of fiction (and non-fiction) books, almost any book can be considered a textbook.

From the Swappability Guidelines in the HC:

No writing or highlighting or underlining on text pages

  • a signature or note on the flyleaf or inside front or back cover is OKAY
  • an author's signature on the title page is OKAY
  • writing or highlighting or underlining on the text pages is NOT OKAY
    • Exception: if it is a textbook or workbook, these are expected to have highlighting/underlining/writing
      • if you post a textbook/workbook, the condition must be described to the requestor in a Personal Message
      • AND the described condition MUST BE AGREED TO in a reply PM before the book is sent
      • This is the one of the ONLY three cases in which a PM exchange about a book is required before the book can be sent (the others are for travel guidebooks and cookbooks--see below).
Date Posted: 10/24/2010 5:53 PM ET
Member Since: 10/30/2009
Posts: 962
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Rebecca,

I understand the textbook exception.  The OP doesn't state that it's a textbook though.  If it's just a regular ole novel...are people trying to bypass the no writing/highlighting rule by using the textbook rule and sending a PM?  What you included here doesn't say it's acceptable to send a PM to a requestor for a regular book with writing/highlighting.  So I'm still not convinced that it's acceptable to do so as Sara pointed out earlier.  If people are using the "textbook" rule to get around this, I find it unacceptable and still say the rules are broken.  If it's not a textbook, a PM should not be sent and the book should not be posted via the system.  But that's just my opinion.

Added:

Mary,

Anyone can say a book was used for a class.  If they use that exception, they are still trying to get around the rules.  A regular novel is not a textbook or workbook.  Those are clearly listed in the system.  Just looks to me that people are getting relaxed in the rules again and posting items that should not be posted via the system.

If it says so someplace else that it is acceptable, then let me know.

Kellie



Last Edited on: 10/24/10 5:56 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/24/2010 5:59 PM ET
Member Since: 12/3/2005
Posts: 9
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Let me clarify this. The book is not a novel, and while it is not a textbook (i.e. not Econ 101), it could be used as a textbook.

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 6:05 PM ET
Member Since: 6/29/2007
Posts: 17,154
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Kellie,

This is from the July 2009 Newsletter:

"Dear Librarian- I saw that there is a "textbook exception" that allows textbooks to be posted if they have underlining or highlighting or writing in them.  How do you define a textbook?  What if I have a novel that was used in a class?  - Hesitant in Hattiesburg

Dear Hattie,

The "textbook exception"  has three parts, really.  Each one is very important, and together they help the textbook exception work well in the club.  First, the textbook exception allows textbooks to be posted with writing/highlighting/underlining (no non-textbooks may be posted with such markings). Second, the textbook exception includes the stipulation that the sender write a Personal Message to the requestor describing the book's condition and third (and most important!), the sender must receive a Personal Message in reply from the requestor, agreeing to the described condition, BEFORE sending the book.  If the requestor does not respond, or declines the book in its condition, the sender must NOT send the book - the sender must let the system cancel, or cancel it by clicking "cancel order".

This requirement of a PM exchange with the requestor accepting the book means that it is not possible for a sender who is following the rules to send a "surprise" highlighted/written in book to a requestor.   For that reason, it does not matter what the sender considers a textbook - if it has markings that will allow it to be posted only if it is a textbook, then the sender is bound by the textbook exception rules to describe it in a PM, and must receive a reply PM consenting to its condition, before sending it.  In this way, matters will naturally sort themselves out: the math textbook that a requestor would expect to have writing in it will be accepted when it is described, while the novel that is read for a class will probably NOT be accepted when it is described.  The sender needs to decline if the requestor refuses the book in its condition.  At some point (after enough refusals from requestors), the member who is trying to send a novel as a textbook will realize that since it is not generally perceived as a textbook, it will probably not be possible to send out a marked-up version of that book here. 

Hope that helps clarify this issue! You can read the textbook exception in the Help Center, of course, in the Help doc "Book Condition Criteria". "

 

From the Help Center - Under "What is the Definition of a Textbook?"

Actually, the way the system and rules are designed, it does not matter what the "objective definition" of a textbook is.  The club members decide this - as long as the rules in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS are followed.  See the explanation and examples below.

If a member considers her book a textbook she may Post it with underlining/highlighting/writing on text pages, according to the "textbook exception" in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS; BUT since the textbook exception in the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS require her to contact the requestor and obtain PM consent to the book's condition, she won't be in the position of sending a "stealth textbook" to someone who doesn't expect to receive one.

Examples/further explanation:

  • Member A posts an Economics 101 textbook - something that most people would clearly consider a textbook.   
  • Following the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS textbook exception rules, she sends a Personal Message to the requestor when she gets a request, describing the book's condition.
  • Chances are good that she will get PM consent from the requestor to send the book with highlighting/etc. 
  • Member B posts a novel (fiction) that she used in a class - something that most people would NOT consider a textbook.
    • Following the Book Condition Criteria for 'Swappability' at PBS textbook exception rules, she sends a Personal Message to the requestor when she gets a request, describing the book's condition.
    • Chances are good that she will NOT get PM consent from the requestor to send the book with highlighting/etc.
    • If the requestor declines the book in its condition, Member B will have to cancel the request and repost her book.  It will go to the 'back of the line' for requests.  (If it is a Wish Listed book, it will be offered to the same wisher and the sender will again have to cancel.  She will have to wait for the wishing member to get a copy of this book from someone else before Member B can post her copy again.)

So, the farther the book is from a 'textbook' in common perception, the more likely it will be difficult to get consent to its condition.  Members in Member B's situation may encounter several declines, and will eventually realize that the book is not likely to be acceptable to the club in its condition.  Member B will stop trying to offer it as a "textbook"  and will consider it instead an unpostable/damaged book.

In this way, the club defines "textbook" on a case-by-case basis, and no one who is following the rules will be able to "surprise" another person with a highlighted/written-in/underlined book.

Basically TPTB have left it up to the individual members to determine if their book qualifies as a textbook and if you are offered a book with highlighting/writing under the texbook clause, you are within your right to send a PM to the sender declining the book if you don't feel that it could have been a textbook.

ETA:  It isn't "getting around" the rules if the rules give you an example of how to do it.



Last Edited on: 10/24/10 6:08 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 10/24/2010 6:09 PM ET
Member Since: 8/25/2007
Posts: 13,134
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If it's just a regular ole novel...

As Mary said, many unis and colleges use various fiction and non-fiction books in their courses, so technically regular ole novels can be considered textbooks.

I find it unacceptable and still say the rules are broken.  If it's not a textbook, a PM should not be sent and the book should not be posted via the system.  But that's just my opinion.

You can feel this way and therefore not post such books yourself, but it is allowed by PBS, therefore it is acceptable and rules are not broken, as long as the requesting member is PM'd about the writing/highlighting.

 

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 6:16 PM ET
Member Since: 10/30/2009
Posts: 962
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Good luck with posting it.  Since it's not a textbook, I personally still advise posting it in the bazaar under the unpostable wishlist thread.  This way it avoids all confusion and allows the requestor to decide if it's in a condition that they want.  If I received a PM about highlighting in a non-textbook, I find that unacceptable.  Regardless of whether it was stated to have been used in a classroom setting.  I tend to err on the side of caution and interpret things differently than others.

In my time here, I've only received one RWAP (an ARC copy posted via the system).  So it's not that I expect a pristine book, but I do expect others to follow the basic rules.  If we don't, everyone will see a decline in the condition of books (that do not meet the rules) and more RWAP will be issued.  I just don't want to see a good thing disappear.  I love this site! LOL

Added:

I was wanting further clarification so that I might be able to post books that have such writing.  But since I don't agree with others on this matter...I will not post such books.  I'm not saying she is not allowed to post it (just that personally I wouldn't accept one or post one).  Now that it's clarified, good luck with Donna posting it.  And I'll continue to err on the side of caution.  Now everyone can get their panties out of a bunch LOL.  I wasn't trying to upset anyone.

Kellie



Last Edited on: 10/24/10 6:21 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 10/24/2010 7:38 PM ET
Member Since: 12/3/2005
Posts: 9
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Kellie,

I am very careful about condition on what I post. But I frequently receive books that don't meet PBS standards here. Usually I get a PM first - and I personally don't mind highlighting or underlining, in fact, I find it interesting to see what others considered important. But I received a book last week that was obviously badly water damaged, and I've received at least two books with spines that were cleaved - as in totally broken, and the pages were in two halves attached to each side only by the spine cover. I've also gotten several with highlighting that I wasn't PM'd about.

This book  is an older theological classic, in VG condition (except for some very neat highlighting), and on several wish lists.  It's been on the 1st person's wish list for over 2 years. If it were me, I'd be happy to get it in just about any condition. But she's not me, so I'd prefer to check. Just last week I ordered three similar theological books from someone who PM'd me that they had all been used as textbooks and had highlighting. I don't think it's unusual for them to be listed, or accepted.

Donna

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 7:43 PM ET
Member Since: 10/30/2009
Posts: 962
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Wow 2 years?  Then I might consider the highlighting then LOL.  At least you're considerate to PM.  Hopefully they will contact you soon so you know.

I'm still iffy about posting such items.  But as long as it's acceptable by sending a PM...then so be it. 

 

Good luck!  Hope I didn't upset you.  I was really wanting clarification for my posting purposes.

 

Kellie

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 9:31 PM ET
Member Since: 7/31/2007
Posts: 2,690
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"Since it's not a textbook, I personally still advise posting it in the bazaar under the unpostable wishlist thread.  This way it avoids all confusion and allows the requestor to decide if it's in a condition that they want. "

Well actually since any book can be considered a textbook and Donna is following the rules...she is avoiding all confusion and allowing the requestor the ability to decide if it's in a condition that they want.

Date Posted: 10/24/2010 9:47 PM ET
Member Since: 10/30/2009
Posts: 962
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As defined by wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn   textbook - "a book prepared for use in schools or colleges"

or www.library.tudelft.nl/tulib/glossary/index.htm - an edition of a book specifically intended for the use of students who are enrolled in a course of study or preparing for an examination on a subject or in an academic discipline, as distinct from the trade edition of the same title, sometimes published in conjunction with a workbook, lab manual

Since novels are not written and prepared for the use in schools, but for pleasure...then No, you can't say that any book can be considered a textbook.

And, if you read my other posts...then you would know that I came to an understanding with the rules, but personally choose not to post books with writing even though I can.  And, I explained to Donna why I was looking for clarification.  It has nothing personal to do with her.

But thank you for that "insight".