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Topic: Bummer - Update 1st post

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Subject: Bummer - Update 1st post
Date Posted: 4/30/2010 8:28 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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I'm so bummed out.  For me and for the sender.  I don't know if he realizes that he sent a book that has a big stain on the inside of the back cover (Trade pb) and on the last 2 pages.  It looks like a wood stain + oil on a man's thumb.  It has been on my WL for over a year.  It is in otherwise perfect condition (no thanks to his wrapping material and lack thereof).  And it's heavy so it cost $3.16 to mail Media Mail.  It did get here in 3 days.

I sent the obligatory RWAP message with appropriate links and information in case he didn't want to bother going to the links.  It's just too bad.  I hate having to send RWAP's.  It's the first in a few months.  Guess my turn is up to get a few.  :(

Ruth

Update:

Well- I've always had bad timing.  This just proves it.  Wait a year for a book and the one person who sends it is trouble.  I'm really bummed out.  Here's the reply:

"Basically, if you get a Personal Message about the problem, you should:
* read the information in the PM to understand what the problem was (and consult the information below if necessary to decide if this was indeed a problem swap)
* reply to the PM offering resolution"

I replied and offered resolution. You stated that the book was unswappable and I offered to accept the book as a swap when you were done with it.

Or is that not what you really wanted? Perhaps you want the book AND the credit or perhaps you are not really a reader but someone accustomed to manipulating this system for profit. I wonder what your PBS record would show on that score.

So this is what I get.  Amazing.  I'd almost rather get no reply.

Ruth



Last Edited on: 5/1/10 11:09 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 5/1/2010 1:14 AM ET
Member Since: 8/26/2006
Posts: 9,321
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That's sad, Ruth.  By marking it RWAP, you should be back at the top of the wish list, at least.

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 11:08 AM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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Well, I got a reply.  Doesn't suprise me since this is what I usually get.

"Send it back and I'll give you a credit. Feel free to read it first."

I'm not sending it back.  Especially for "a credit".  Really!  Now how best to answer this?  The book is really very readable.  Just not postable.  Had I asked for it knowing it was unpostable it would be okay.  But since it isn't I'm not happy it was in the FIFO system.  I usually ask for my credit to be returned especially if like this sender they've been here since 2007.  No excuse except they didn't look through the book before mailing it.  It's only a credit.  But it isn't nice to play like this.  I've gotten some really disgusting books before, and this one isn't.  But it's not postable and his reply only makes me mad. 

Any suggestions?

Ruth

PS. at least he answered immediately!

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 11:43 AM ET
Member Since: 4/7/2008
Posts: 15,690
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Ruthy - All you can do is mention the appropriate rules (how you can request your credit because the book sent was unpostable, how you're not required to send the book back unless he gives you an additional credit to pay for postage), ask for your credit return again and if he doesn't do it, mark the problem unresolved and move on.

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 11:46 AM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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Send him a copy of the rules that say you don't have to send it back if you don't want to, and that if you did he'd have to return your credit and gift you a second one if you did want to send it back.

Also send him a copy of the rules about no stains, and tell him that the book shouldn't have been posted, nor sent, and that you're still asking for your credit back.

Not much you can do after that but mark the transaction unresolved if he won't return the credit.

Unless he admits in PM that he knew the stain was there and sent it anyway. If he did you could then contact the site owners and send them a copy of the PM. They tend to get involved if they can see the member willingly/knowingly broke the rules.

I wish you luck!



Last Edited on: 5/1/10 11:47 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 5/1/2010 11:53 AM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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I know PBS doesn't get involved. I don't espect them to.  It's only a credit.  I'm just trying to see if there's some other way than I've used in the past because I've not been very successful with RWAP senders.  This is what I've concocted so far:

PBS rules say:

http://www.paperbackswap.com/help/help_item.php?id=344:

"Remember that the requestor is not required to send the book back at his or her expense. There is more information about this below. The sender of a problem book does risk losing credit, book and postage; this is the incentive NOT to send problem books."

"# A requestor does NOT have to return the item in a "problem" transaction

    * if the sender wants the item back, he or she should send postage or a credit to pay for its return."



I would require 1 credit for postage to send it back plus my original credit I paid for the book for the total of 2 credits.

This book is definitely readable.  I agree with that.  But we aren't supposed to send unpostable condition books via the FIFO system.  If you have a WL'd unpostable book you can post it in the Book Bazaar forum describing the condition or defect and asking for the credit anyway.  PBS has to draw the line somewhere on the postable/unpostable conditions - stains of any sort falls into the unpostable category.

I agree that this is only a book and only a credit, but I follow the rules PBS set down as I agreed to do upon joining.  And I expect other members to do the same."

That may be too much.  Don't know.  Just trying to do something different - maybe educational for the other member.

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 11:56 AM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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I'd take out the part about it being "Only a book and only a credit". To me that means you're not really serious about your request, and that it's not that big a deal.

I don't think there's anything else you can do. Just wait and see what he says/does, then mark the transaction accordingly.

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 3:54 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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OK, indulge me a liitle longer.  I'm not interested in getting PBS involved.  I would only like my credit returned especially in light of this person's response.  I've cut my response down.  I should probably just say "send me my credit" to make it as short as he did, but I keep hoping to educate him apparently against his will.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PBS rules say:

http://www.paperbackswap.com/help/help_item.php?id=344:

"Remember that the requestor is not required to send the book back at his or her expense. There is more information about this below. The sender of a problem book does risk losing credit, book and postage; this is the incentive NOT to send problem books."

"# A requestor does NOT have to return the item in a "problem" transaction

    * if the sender wants the item back, he or she should send postage or a credit to pay for its return."

 So I would require 1 credit for postage to send it back plus my original credit I paid for the book for the total of 2 credits according to the rules.  But I don't have to return it if I don't want to.

 We aren't supposed to send unpostable condition books via the FIFO system.  PBS has to draw the line somewhere on the postable/unpostable conditions and they have - stains of any sort anywhere fall into the unpostable category.

Please return my original credit so I can mark this transaction resolved favorably.
Ruth

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 4:18 PM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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I'd sent it as written.

You've shown him where the rules are, what they are, and repeated that you're expecting your credit back. It may not do any good, but at least you've tried, and put him on notice about the rules if he didn't know any of this before.

Good luck.

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 5:16 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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Thanks, Cindy - and everyone else.  I just always feel so clumsy about writing RWAP PM's.  I'd like to have a light touch that isn't off-putting.  It isn't so much about the books or the credit as it is persuading members to abide by the rules we agreed to follow.  I know either they will or they won't.  Usually in my case they won't.  But I read a lot of science fiction and a lot of men do, too.  Not to be sexist but it seems that men are less likely to pay attention to condition and to returning credits.  At least they do in my experience.  They (including my DH) seem to have a "why make a big deal about this?" attitude.  So it's done.  We'll see.

Thanks again.

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/1/2010 11:37 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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So in light of the reply in my update in the 1st post - any more suggestions while I cool off and hope to regain my composure?

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 12:32 AM ET
Member Since: 1/20/2009
Posts: 2,680
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It sounds like this one is going to go unresolved. I had one almost exactly like this about a week ago. They got a bit rude and hostile over the idea of me keeping the book and getting my credit returned when the book was in a readable condition, even after I sent them a PM explaining the rules on condition of postable books and not being required to return the book to get a refund. In the end I just basically replied that I was marking it unresolved, giving their account a double black mark, and if they continued to send 'readable' books that are blatantly unpostable, and ignoring the rules PBS clearly spells out, PBS would deal with them before long. I then marked it unresolved and walked away. I had explained the rules, pointed him to them, and done everything I could. But, there's not really much you can do when a person decides that they don't agree with the rules, and so they don't apply to them. Apparently some people have trouble with the concept that if they mess up they get punished, not the other person. Therefore, as PBS says, if they send a problem book, they need to be prepared to lose out on the book, credit, and postage. The other person doesn't pay for the credit twice by mailing the book back to get their credit returned, while being forced to trust the other person to do as they say they will after they already broke the rules. Besides that, these are usually the people who if you did return the book to them, would gladly repost it and pass it on to the next poor member. And it starts all over again.

On the bright side, that was only my second ever unresolved RWAP, and the first where the book couldn't at least be reposted (the other was a wrong book received scenario where I really was wanting the exact version I requested).

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 12:45 AM ET
Member Since: 4/20/2009
Posts: 519
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I lost 3 credits to just one person over unpostable books. I didn't know at the time that I didn't have to send them back. Sender said they would return my credits if I sent the books back. Now they say they have never received them. So out postage and credits. Did mark it unresolved, but it still ticks me off.

Kate

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 12:47 AM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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Thank you, Tiffany.  I need perspective.  I dislike being insulted and baited - but then no one does. I have had several RWAP during my membership.  Few of them have returned my credit.  It might be that it is a genre (Science Fiction) that has at least as many - if not more - men trading in it than women.  So they don't "get it" if it is a readable copy.

So it is going to go like most of my RWAP's.  Fortunately,  I don't get that many.  But one of these is more than enough for a long time.

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 12:53 AM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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Kate, I'm sorry that happened to you.  I had decided that the postage would cost more than the credit would cover since the bare minimum postage would be $3.16 and I would have to add PBS DC just so everyone knew I'd mailed it...if the USPS managed to scan it.  It makes sense that they wouldn't believe you if you said you'd mailed it. He didn't use PBS postage+DC and wrapped it only with the one sheet of PBS wrapper.  It was a large heavy trade paperback.  I'd be sending it much better packaged.  But now I don't have to worry about that!

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 10:30 AM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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I got the final answer from my person who was being difficult.  Not at all surprising.  Here's the deciding post:

"If you choose to not refund the credit for the stained book, I can mark the swap as Unresolved.

Okay

As for the personal nature of your comment regarding my record here at PBS, it isn't relevant to the issue at hand and baiting me isn't a solution.

It is entertaining though - Enjoy your weekend!"

I'm so glad he had fun.  I didn't.

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 10:54 AM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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I'm so glad he had fun.  I didn't.

If he's got that kind of attitude, Ruth, hopefully he won't be here long.

Which is why I can see why some people restate the basic site rules in their RC's. Yes, the bad traders ignored the rules the first time by posting an unpostable, and yes they've ignored it a second time even though they're reminded when agreeing to send a book out.

But from what I understand a RWAP against an RC is more than just a regular black mark on their record. So it'd 1) Hopefully help some people have second thoughts about sending that unpostable anyway and 2) weed the bad traders out of the system faster.

Haven't done it yet, but sometimes it really is darn tempting.

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 11:52 AM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2009
Posts: 1,083
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Not to be sexist but it seems that men are less likely to pay attention to condition and to returning credits.

I find this interesting because the only problem I have had with a RWAP was with a man.  And he did the same thing to me as yours did to you, accusing me of wanting a free book and a free credit.  Mine accused me of having an RC because I was scamming people to get a free book.  I wonder if your guy is the same as my guy.  If so, he won't be here much longer since I didn't close my RWAP because he refused to refund my credit.  I wonder how many unresolved RWAPs about sending unpostable books (or books that violate an RC) a person can get before PBS shuts them down.

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 12:05 PM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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  If so, he won't be here much longer since I didn't close my RWAP because he refused to refund my credit.  I wonder how many unresolved RWAPs about sending unpostable books (or books that violate an RC) a person can get before PBS shuts them down.

For anything to happen I think you have to mark the transaction "unresolved" to count agains them. If you leave it open, I don't think the site assumes anything at all other than you're still negotiating a fix. So it won't count until you mark it resolved in some way.

http://www.paperbackswap.com/help/search.php?terms=unresolved

What happens when you submit follow-up

  • Sender did NOT resolve the problem
    • this removes the "Was Problem Resolved?" button from the transaction
    • does NOT change the problem icon in the Transaction Archive
    • Adds the notation that the problem was NOT resolved to the Transaction Archive
      • this text appears on both sender 's and requestor's transaction archives
    • Adds a "double mark" against the sender in his or her account record "behind the scenes"
Date Posted: 5/2/2010 1:00 PM ET
Member Since: 9/13/2007
Posts: 2,520
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Ugh, I know how you feel. I once had a person accuse me of damaging the book myself after receiving it from her and than marking it RWAP to "scam" her out of a credit. It made me feel like dirt. IMHO, people who knowingly post unpostable books are the scammers.

It really sucks to have someone make accusations that are completely unsubstantiated, just remember that they are only saying these things in order to weasel their way out of taking any responsibility for their actions. 

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 2:24 PM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2009
Posts: 1,083
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For anything to happen I think you have to mark the transaction "unresolved" to count agains them.

I absolutely marked it "unresolved"  Since it was the only unresolved RWAP I have had in over 100 trades, I guess I should consider myself lucky.

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 3:44 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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just remember that they are only saying these things in order to weasel their way out of taking any responsibility for their actions.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just think if someone will do this for $2.50 to $3.50 what will they do for something that's really valuable.

Ruth

Ronda (RONDA) - ,
Date Posted: 5/2/2010 5:36 PM ET
Member Since: 3/3/2009
Posts: 415
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I think it is very common for people to think the reciever is in the wrong to keep the book and get the credit back.  If they resolve when given the links to help I think it is fine.  I assume they are thinking of a retailer refund situation instead of what is really going on.

On my 1st RWAP, the person asked me to mail the book back but did give the original credit right away.  I sent the help info and they didn't send an extra credit, so I didn't mail back.  They did ask what I was going to do with the book, I told them probably post it on a site that allows damaged books to swap.

On my 2nd RWAP they sent the wrong book and stopped responding after telling me they didn't have the right book.  I asked PBS to cancel the transaction because they wouldn't send me a credit so I could RWAP and mark resolved and I wanted to go back on the wishlist.  PBS did and said they would talk to the member about it.  If they had been cooperative i might have sent them the credit for the wrong book, but since they were not.......

If your PMs from this person admitted that the book was not postable I would send it to PBS.  If they disagree about the condition of the book I would not.  Also if they were rude about it send it to PBS.  You might have somebody objective look at the PMs since your feelings are involved and you might not be objective.  I think if PBS gets a complaint they might check the history and contact the person about what the site rules are,

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 6:42 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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Ronda, I only got what he send and I posted it here.  Not really admitting anything.  Not really out and out rude.  Just a little insulting.  I'm not going to PM  the team because I can't prove anything.  The title is back on my WL and I'm #1.  Just in case he wants to check.  I did get the feeling from what he said that he did it intentionally and I'm not sure he didn't put the thumbprint there on purpose.  Not sure why someone would do that, but who knows?

Ruth

Date Posted: 5/2/2010 8:36 PM ET
Member Since: 1/12/2009
Posts: 387
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I have had a problem with receiving water damaged books recently.  One was a wish list book I had been waiting on for a long time.  It had one random page with water damage so I can see how it would have been easily missed.  I marked it RWAP but did not request my credit back.  I am bummed that I can't post a heavily wish listed book though. 

My most recent transaction, the book was horribly water damaged.  I am convinced it was dropped in the bathtub, pool or sink since I have a book that i accidentally did that too (I would definitely never consider posting it on PBS) and they are identical with damage.  All the pages are wrinkled and swollen and brittle.  Ugh.  In both swaps (the one with a little bit of water damage, and the one with a TON) the swapper said: It had to be damaged in transit because it was fine when it left my house.  I have to think that is the lamest excuse.  I would have been able to tell if the wrapper were water damaged, which they weren't, and there are ways to wrap adequately to prevent damage.  

The 2nd swapper didn't respond when I said the wrapper wasn't damaged and described the condition of the book. I am not looking forward to saying if I don't get my credit back I will make it unresolved.  My only other unresolved was with a similarly water damaged book.  I hate when people restate the posting guidelines in RCs, but I am beginning to understand why so many people are requesting "no water damage."  Though if they don't recognize it when I describe it to them, i don't think an RC is going to help.