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Topic: Would you give the credit back?

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Shelly -
Subject: Would you give the credit back?
Date Posted: 4/14/2010 1:50 PM ET
Member Since: 11/13/2009
Posts: 3,036
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I sent a book out and got a RWAP. I checked the book before I sent it and it met PBS requirements. In fact, I would not have an issue getting this book myself.

I got this from her:
this book doesn't seem to meet paperback's swap guidelines for condition...it's pretty beat up. a credit would be appreciated. thanks for your understanding.

Which I replyed:
I'm sorry you feel that way. Can you tell me specifically what part doesn't meet the PBS conditions? Thanks.

And her last one to me:
i would just consider it to be in generally poor condition and would not send it to someone myself.....i'll leave it up to you whether you want to refund the credit. i don't think it will last through another reading and i don't even feel comfortable donating it to the school library.

I'm not trying to get out of giving her credit back. I just wanted her to say 'a small stain on the front cover' or 'pages were falling out' or something that I could have missed. I'm just not sure that I want to refund a credit for meeting PBS conditions but not theirs.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 2:01 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,725
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I would not refund the credit in the absence of a specific rule broken.

Anyway, the rules don't say that you have to send a book that is postable when the next person is done reading it. You only have to send a book that is postable when it leaves your hands.

Every book has a last reader, or a last "postable condition" time, and sometimes its just your turn.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 2:03 PM ET
Member Since: 2/19/2009
Posts: 692
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That is a hard one to decide without seeing the book. PBS does state that "the book is "in good condition, and not excessively worn".  Excessively worn is subjective. A book does have to be in good condition, as well as, meet all of the specific conditions that PBS lists.

Therein lies the dilemma, you think it is in good condition, while the receiver considers it excessively worn. You have to decide how worn the book actually was.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 2:06 PM ET
Member Since: 4/2/2007
Posts: 5,597
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I would not refund the credit unless it was unpostable and a specific reason was given. 'Pretty beat up" is not a condition. Some people call that well loved.

Rick B. (bup) - ,
Date Posted: 4/14/2010 2:07 PM ET
Member Since: 11/2/2007
Posts: 2,625
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I'd refund it. There's the one rule -

"When you Post a book, you are asked to confirm that the book is "in good condition, and not excessively worn".

The help docs further say if it's a "grey area" to PM the requester before you send it.

There's never going to be 100% member agreement on what is postable and not, and I'd just refund it and move on. Nobody wrong or right, just a show of good faith.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 2:16 PM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2009
Posts: 1,083
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I agree with a previous poster that this is a tough one.  I have received a few books that were definitely not in "good" condition (yellowing pages, severely creased spines, cover in very rough condition.  I guess they were technically postable if your definition of "good" is that the book is not falling apart.

Personally, I would refund the credit.  On the other hand, I probably would not have posted a book that was not in what I considered to be good condition.  Right now I have a dozen books that are technically postable, but I consider them to be in rather poor condition.  They are going to the FOL.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 2:58 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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I was going to say the same thing as Sara.  If she gave a specific problem like the spine being bad, a stain etc.., then I would refund the credit assuming I missed something. 

But every book has to get to the end of it's life as a postable book.  I think people don't think about that. They think every book should be postable when they get done reading it. But that's now what the rule says.  It's needs to have been postable when received.  If it's got one more read in it as a postable book then it's ok to be sent.

That being said-I don't send anything borderline because I don't want the hassle of a complaint. But if you know the book met PBS posting guidelines than you did nothing wrong. 

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 3:06 PM ET
Member Since: 7/28/2006
Posts: 4,980
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Kate -

Yellowing pages and creased spines are perfectly postable per the Help Center.  If you don't like to get books that have creased spines or yellowed pages then you need to add an RC to your account. 

As far as this problem goes, I am in the would not refund without a specific reason camp.  I am more than happy to refund immediately if they point out a specific problem (even if I'm sure it wasn't there before I sent it) but "worn" or "beat up" is just too subjective. 

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 3:19 PM ET
Member Since: 8/15/2007
Posts: 3,044
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I would not refund either. Like others said, she has not given a specfic reason and this seems to simply be the end of the book's PBS life. She even admits it's readable by her, but might not be after. In that regard, I think you do not have to refund the credit.

I wouldn't even refund just to be nice or in good faith. I don't really understand why people do that. I understand when there is a specific problem and/or something you could have missed, but this does not seem like such a situation.

I think she marked this RWAP by mistake. Even if she doesn't mark it resolved without the returned credit, I personally wouldn't worry about it.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 3:25 PM ET
Member Since: 8/25/2007
Posts: 13,134
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FWIW, I agree with the "would not refund" group. 

Creased spines and yellowed pages tend to occur in older PB books but neither make the book(s) unpostable per se, so Alisa is correct in suggesting that an RC should be added if anyone doesn't want/like books with those. 

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 3:29 PM ET
Member Since: 1/29/2006
Posts: 54,837
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Right now I have a dozen books that are technically postable, but I consider them to be in rather poor condition. 

Which is completely your choice, of course.  If they are postable, though, there would be nothing wrong with posting them.  You are saying that your personal standard is higher than PBS', which is fine for sending but not for receiving unless you have RCs.  (which you might, I have no idea)

To the OP, I agree with those who would not return the credit in this instance. 

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 3:55 PM ET
Member Since: 6/4/2007
Posts: 2,941
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This type of issue usually boils down to the fact that, sometimes, a book is just on its last read.  A book can be fairly worn but at the same time completely in line with PBS conditions; I've definitely gotten my share of those.  If reading it myself pops a few pages loose or something, then it's just a shame that books have to wear out at all, but it's hardly the Sender's fault for mailing me a book that became damaged after I received it.  I agree that the subjectivity of the whole notion of "condition" at this point makes the issue difficult, and will vary from member to member.  I say just go with whatever your conscience tells you.  Personally, so long as it meets the guidelines, even if I were to complain about poor condition I don't think I could mark it RWAP unless it had a specific issue.  Considering that, I wouldn't return the credit were the shoe on the other foot.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 4:27 PM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2005
Posts: 4,599
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I'm in the "no refund" camp. If you checked the book over before you sent it and felt it met guidelines, then you posted the book in good faith. People's expectations differ, but if she can't point out a specific problem and it's just vague stuff, I would say you don't owe her a credit.

I've received several books that were sort of 'borderline' and my reading of the book put them into the 'I don't think I'll post this' category, but I didn't have a problem with receiving the book.

Cheryl

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 5:23 PM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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No refund.

The fact is sometimes a book will be 'like new' and other times we'll get one at the tail end of it's life. One reading is all they have left, and that's the one we get.

If she got a book that met guidelines when it was sent, then that's all that matters. Whether she feels she can post it again isn't for you to worry about.

Keep your credit.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 5:33 PM ET
Member Since: 11/30/2007
Posts: 4,962
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Count me in as another 'no refund'. She can't give you a specific reason other than not in good condition.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 5:50 PM ET
Member Since: 12/9/2007
Posts: 9,601
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I seen so many have more relaxed qualifications than receiving qualifications that I almost expect it to be a bad deal if I RWAP.  It doesn't stop me from RWAP-ing an unpostable.  And I'm pretty easy-going as a rule.  So I say keep your credit if you're sure the book met conditions when you sent it out.

Ruth

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 7:18 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,186
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No refund.

 The requester said: ...i don't think it will last through another reading... - It doesn't have to. As long as it was postable when it was sent, that requester needs to accept that sometimes they will get the last read in a book.

Date Posted: 4/14/2010 7:51 PM ET
Member Since: 9/13/2007
Posts: 2,520
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Nope

Date Posted: 4/15/2010 12:47 PM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2009
Posts: 1,083
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 The requester said: ...i don't think it will last through another reading... - It doesn't have to. As long as it was postable when it was sent, that requester needs to accept that sometimes they will get the last read in a book.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this statement.  PBS rules say that a book has to be in "good" condition.  I don't think a book that won't make it through another reading is in anywhere near "good" condition. 

Date Posted: 4/15/2010 12:52 PM ET
Member Since: 11/5/2009
Posts: 1,083
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With all the "no refunds" here I am really curious as to what people here consider to be "good condition and not excessively worn" for a book.  It sounds like most of you feel that if a book isn't falling apart at the seams or missing parts, the book is in "good" condition.  Another question is why PBS put the qualifier ""When you Post a book, you are asked to confirm that the book is "in good condition, and not excessively worn" in their rules if the only standards they needed being met were the listed standards of stains, writing, etc. 

Kate -
Date Posted: 4/15/2010 1:02 PM ET
Member Since: 8/28/2008
Posts: 534
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Add me to the no refund group. Unlike the rest of the guidelines, "good condition" is a subjective statement, and therefore a matter of personal discretion IMO.  If I personally believed the book was in good condition, I wouldn't refund without a very specific reason to the contrary. I completely agree with you that "it won't last" is still open to interpretation, and I would probably ask for further clarification. But that question would be my last if she still couldn't be more specific.

 

 

Shelly -
Date Posted: 4/15/2010 1:08 PM ET
Member Since: 11/13/2009
Posts: 3,036
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I would not consider the book I sent excessively worn. It is one of a set of 6 and I still have the rest of the set. I double checked the ones I have left this morning since they were all in the same condition. I feel that while the book was not in new condition, it was still in good condition. Only a couple even have a crease in the spine where the book was opened. The others all have wear on the edges of the spine, where something has rubbed the corners. I still believe that the book met all PBS conditions. Would I donate it to a library? No, but I wouldn't donate any used books to a library.



Last Edited on: 4/15/10 1:11 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Kate -
Date Posted: 4/15/2010 1:14 PM ET
Member Since: 8/28/2008
Posts: 534
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 It sounds like most of you feel that if a book isn't falling apart at the seams or missing parts, the book is in "good" condition. 

I don't think a book that won't make it through another reading is in anywhere near "good" condition. 

For starters, books falling apart at the seams or missing parts would already be unpostable. So no, I don't feel that would be considered good condition. But every book goes from "postable" to "unpostable" at some point. I don't agree that if a book is even close to becoming unpostable soon, then it can't be in good condition.

The bottom line in this case is that the person didn't actually say the book is falling apart. She didn't say that pages were loose, or that the binding was separating. She said "it wouldn't last". We don't know if she means it's actually going to fall apart, or that it will just be overly worn and unpostable at that point. That's why most people wanted a clearer and more specific reason. If she actually meant that the book would fall apart into 20 pieces if she so much as read it, then yes, I would consider that poor condition.

Date Posted: 4/15/2010 1:28 PM ET
Member Since: 10/13/2007
Posts: 36,445
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We also need to consider how ROUGH the reader is.. My hubby is a very gentle reader, when he is done you cannot tell he has touched the book.
Me on the other hand do put a few small creases in the spine but am not harsh on them.

Other people I have seen are very rough on a brand new paperback that it looks like it was read 5 times.

PBS does state books get to a point that they are on their last read.. I too think this is what is happening with this book.

They even state that after THEY read it, they do not 'think' it will be postable.. Nothing about it being unpostable when they got it.

Date Posted: 4/15/2010 1:39 PM ET
Member Since: 9/13/2007
Posts: 2,520
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Sending books through the mail can add much more wear and tear than just reading them. My "no refund" was based on the complete lack of any concrete reason as to why the book wasn't postable aside from the receivers opinion that it wasn't in good condition and their opinion that it wouldn't last through another reading. I have gotten plenty of unpostable books, but I have never sent such a vague message about what was wrong with the book, and I have never marked a book RWAP for such subjective reasons. If someone can't be bothered to give a detailed description of why they think a book should not have been posted they shouldn't expect to get their credit back. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking detailed as in "There is a water spot approximately 3 cm by 8 cm on pages 27-33" I'm talking "there is water damage on the bottom of several pages and that makes the book unpostable". This isn't as cut and dry as water damage,but in my opinion details such as "The cover is ragged, the spine is very creased , the glue seems weak"  would have made this RWAP far more believable. As it is, it is far too vague for me not to suspect this person is just being overly picky.

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