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Topic: this is so disheartening

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Subject: this is so disheartening
Date Posted: 10/15/2008 11:01 AM ET
Member Since: 9/29/2005
Posts: 3,152
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Students pulled from transgendered teacher's class.

http://www.kcra.com/cnn-news/17714619/detail.html

When will this fear and prejudice end? 

Date Posted: 10/15/2008 12:32 PM ET
Member Since: 6/20/2007
Posts: 4,979
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I don't get where parents think they have a "right to know".  Why would the parents have a "right" to know, and more importantly, why would it even matter?

I really feel for the teacher.

Date Posted: 10/15/2008 3:47 PM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2005
Posts: 1,023
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When will this fear and prejudice end?   Probably never, unfortunately.  It's so sad that parents are going to pull their kids out of this person's class, just because of a sex change, and so the vicious cycle of fear/prejudice continues with their children....

Date Posted: 10/15/2008 5:03 PM ET
Member Since: 4/11/2008
Posts: 79
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I bet these same parents were talking about what a great teacher he was last year.  I can't believe people will completely changing their minds about someone because of one fact.  I can only think of 2-3 things that are worth changing your mind about someone so dramatically.  What are they teaching their kids?  One fact makes all the difference?  If something is different and unusual avoid it, instead of figuring out why it makes you comfortable?  Hopefully the kids will learn more than the parents from the situation.

Date Posted: 10/21/2008 7:29 PM ET
Member Since: 1/27/2007
Posts: 426
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When will this fear and prejudice end? 

Never.  Remember fear of the transgendered is the reason I didn't get an astronomy instructor position and they instead gave it to someone with a masters in history.  I have the degree they wanted and the equivalent of 3 years full time teaching.  They didn't want to hire me because of the trans thing.

Date Posted: 10/22/2008 8:41 AM ET
Member Since: 5/29/2007
Posts: 13,347
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Mel, that just brings tears to my eyes.  That's really horrible (like I need to tell you).  I can't even imagine, just can't fathom why it matters.

Date Posted: 10/22/2008 11:42 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2008
Posts: 258
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I had no idea that they could pull their kids out of a persons class for a lame reason like that. I know that in a local school around where i live they fired a teacher because in the middle of her back (where no student or faculty member could see) she had a pentagram with tribal  designs around it tattooed...it was in honor of her girlfriend (i think)  who was wiccan and had passed away.  She was at the grocery store and one of the parents saw it...next thing you know they cut the class at the school leaving her without a job...the next school year they brought the class back with a different teacher. We soon found out that the school dropped the class so that they would have a reasonable excuse to fire her, because to quote a member of the school board "we hired her against our best judgement knowing that she was gay but to find out that she is a satan worshiper,that is the last straw..." and later on the same member said "...all we need is for her to make our kids think its okay to be an evil lesbian".

I wish the world would just open their minds to other situations the the prejudice that their parents instilled in them, the world would be such a better place if we could all eccept everyone the way they are,

Nikki

Date Posted: 12/1/2008 1:51 AM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2008
Posts: 17
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I consider myself an ally, I really do. But I kinda side with the parents.

ALSO NOTE: I live in this town. (go Bulldogs go! ....uhhh...sorry, Vacav high is number 1)

Anyways. The teacher definatly had the right to not tell the parents, however, it would be a courtesy. And also, the article makes the parents seem like sharks. Hey, they decided THEIR children were too young to learn this, and they are not wrong for making that decision for their child.

And many of those students were previous students. Imagine having to try to understand that elementry school age.

And, wasn't he making the bigger deal out of it? Did he really need to say "Hey guys, Im a mister now, even though its none of your business"? Is that fair, when (and I excuse the immaturity of this statement) He started it? Eventually they would call him a mister.

Anyways, congrats to him, making this step in life. But really, it's different when your a parent. The parents decision wasn't all out of malice.

Thanks for letting me play devils advocate! BTW, my kids would stay in that class, but i'd tell him (up in his face!) this was music class, and my kid doesn't give a damn who you are. So leave it alone.

 

Date Posted: 12/2/2008 1:16 PM ET
Member Since: 9/14/2007
Posts: 226
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I don't know why it would be a bad thing for a child to learn about it... the sooner they understand the better chance they won't grow up to be close minded and full of hate... just my opinion. It's just gender!! Why does it have to matter so much? People are the same people they always are despite their gender identification. It doesn't change their character or teaching abilities. Le sigh... the world is so heartless.
Date Posted: 12/2/2008 1:30 PM ET
Member Since: 1/27/2007
Posts: 426
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Courtney, I fail to see why it would be so hard for children to learn it in elementary school.

"And, wasn't he making the bigger deal out of it? Did he really need to say "Hey guys, Im a mister now, even though its none of your business"? Is that fair, when (and I excuse the immaturity of this statement) He started it? Eventually they would call him a mister."

No, he wasn't "making the bigger deal out of it."  He came out at work, as he is required to do by the standards of care, etc.  If he didn't, he would have been outed sooner or later.  Something would have happened.  He and the school board did everything possible to make it easier on him.

Do you know any transgendered people, Courtney?  Do you know any of their stories?  I came out in May 2002 as a transsexual and started to live life as "Mister", people are still calling me Ms, she, and even addressing me by my birthname if they knew it before.  To think that people would "eventually call him a mister" is wishful thinking at best.  I know ftms who 20 years later post-transition are still being addressed as female and Ms.  I know mtfs who are still being sirred.

Date Posted: 12/2/2008 4:07 PM ET
Member Since: 6/2/2007
Posts: 527
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"The teacher definatly had the right to not tell the parents, however, it would be a courtesy."

My thing is this. Had they sent a notice home to the parents, the parents would have been upset because he was 'rubbing it in thier faces'. It was a loose/loose situation. The fault they find isn't in being alerted or not being alerted. It's in him being himself when they think he should act like a woman. Simple as that.

"And also, the article makes the parents seem like sharks. Hey, they decided THEIR children were too young to learn this, and they are not wrong for making that decision for their child."

Would the parents be equally justified if they learned that one of the teachers is pagan and felt the children were "too young" to learn that other people might not be the same religion as them. Yes, they have the right to pull their children out of either teacher's class. I'm still going to think it's an out-dated, prejudicial thinking that's causing them to do so.

"And many of those students were previous students. Imagine having to try to understand that elementry school age."

Actually... younger children seem to have an easier time accepting gender changes, and different orientations in general, than adults do. They're simply more accepting to differences than adults are. So, I don't see the difficulty here. You can say, "Mr.X may have a girl's body, but inside he's actually a boy. So, that's why we say "Mr." because we're talking to the person he is inside." But then, the kid might actually show some sympathy and compassion towards him.

"And, wasn't he making the bigger deal out of it? Did he really need to say "Hey guys, Im a mister now, even though its none of your business"? Is that fair, when (and I excuse the immaturity of this statement) He started it? Eventually they would call him a mister."

O.K. first... If the kids walk into class and see that "she" now looks like a "he" and the child has never been taught the social protocals for this by their families or society in general, their responce would probably be something like.... "Ummm... Hi, Mrs.... Mr.... ummmm..... Which are we supposed to call you now?" Why? Because they've never been told what they're supposed to say in that situation. They probably asked him which to call him. Or he saw that responce coming and nipped it in the bud. "Yes, I'm a boy. Calling me "Mister" and "He" is what I would prefer." I think the parents are the ones making a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be.

"But really, it's different when your a parent. The parents decision wasn't all out of malice."

No. I think some of it was fear and some of it was conditioned responces. But that still doesn't mean I support or agree with what they did.

"Thanks for letting me play devils advocate! BTW, my kids would stay in that class, but i'd tell him (up in his face!) this was music class, and my kid doesn't give a damn who you are. So leave it alone."

So he should have let the kids call him a woman, "Miss" and use feminine pronouns to address him? I know many male teachers, or even men in general, who would take it as a great insult if someone slipped and called them a "she." But this gentleman should take it in stride and not bother to correct them? I mean, he's let everyone get away with it for Years because they couldn't "see" that he was a guy. But now they can. They no longer have an excuse to get away with it. It's a simple change. Call him what he is. Why is that so hard?



Last Edited on: 12/2/08 11:06 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 12/2/2008 4:13 PM ET
Member Since: 1/27/2007
Posts: 426
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Preach it Kris.  I think I love you.  I only wish some of the people on PBS who insist that ftms are still women (yet call themselves allies) read your post.

Date Posted: 12/3/2008 6:27 PM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2008
Posts: 17
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Your right Kris, children do seem to actually understand things better. You made awesome points!

I just think that the parents /should/ of been able to, but personally they shoudn't.

People just unfortuanatly have the right to dictate what their child learns, and I think they shouldn't really be judged for that. However, if the school asked him to LEAVE the school that would piss me off, because he had the right to have his sex change.

It's sad that people don't want to experience observing a new lifestyle with their child. But would it be right to say "No, you don't have the right to take your child out of this class?" It wouldn't!

Again, thanks for devils advocate time! Oh, Kris, when I meant leave it alone, I meant leave the details of the sex change alone, not the fact that you are a he. I would explain to my kid myself she was a he now, and to do your best to call him that. If that's what you meant.

Date Posted: 12/3/2008 7:22 PM ET
Member Since: 1/27/2007
Posts: 426
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Actually if the parents can remove the students from class, how would it be any different from allowing parents to pull a child from a teacher's class if they found out that the teacher was black or hispanic?

The details of the sex change itself are probably not being thrown in anyone's face, just the fact that he either had one or is going to have one soon.  Do you know if he had a phalloplasty?  Meta?  Hysterectomy?  Oopho?  Top surgery (if so, which type)?  Hormones?  I doubt most of the details are actually out there.   

Date Posted: 12/4/2008 2:43 AM ET
Member Since: 12/1/2008
Posts: 17
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You can actually take your kid out if they were a race you didn't like. To pull your kid out of a teachers class, it's as easy as saying "I dont like their teaching methods" Sad truth. But as long as THE SCHOOL (or employer) doesn't say anything, its fine.

So your right Mel, there is no difference, please trust me on that.

Sad truth :(

Date Posted: 12/8/2008 5:29 PM ET
Member Since: 6/2/2007
Posts: 527
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Sorry for the long delay.

Mel

"I only wish some of the people on PBS who insist that ftms are still women (yet call themselves allies) read your post."

*shrugs* There are days I think I completely understand... and other days I'm not too sure or just really confused. I get the basic idea, and once you get that.... well, it's easier to be understanding. ...... If that makes any sence at all. O.o

 

Courtney,

"You made awesome points!"

Thank you.

"I just think that the parents /should/ of been able to, but personally they shoudn't."

I can understand that. To me it's identical to the race issue. A parent still has the ability to pull the kid out of a teachers class, simply because they don't like the teachers race. But to do so openly, they are going to get a lot of disapproval. It may be mean, but that's how I think the responce to this should be. Yah, they can do it... but it is not cool and you (general) aren't going to get a pat on the back or sympathy because the kid was "exposed" to transgenders. Get what I mean?. 

"People just unfortuanatly have the right to dictate what their child learns, and I think they shouldn't really be judged for that."

I do. I fully believe that parents should be held responsible for what they teach thier children, at least socially. If I see an adult teaching thier kid to say n!gg@r, you bet I'm going to make a judgement about them. And I will let my judgement show. Likewise, If they want to pull thier kids out of this class, go ahead. But don't expect me to respect that choice nor the drives that motive it.

"However, if the school asked him to LEAVE the school that would piss me off, because he had the right to have his sex change."

But what happens when He only has 5 kids left in his class, because the backwards parents yanked thier kid out of his class. The school is going to be hard pressed to justify keeping him on. No, I don't think the kids should be forced into his class. But I do think some distaste for the parents' actions should be show. And if nothing else, those kids (and obviously parents) need to learn that just because you don't like someone does not mean you get to cut them out of your world. If I have a co-worker at my job that I really don't like, I still have to work with them. I can't go to my boss and say, "I don't like that person. I'm not going to work with them." Or better yet I can... but my bosses solution will probably be to fire me.

"Again, thanks for devils advocate time!"

My pleasure. Debate is good for the mind.

"I meant leave the details of the sex change alone, not the fact that you are a he. I would explain to my kid myself she was a he now, and to do your best to call him that."

Ah. Ok. Sorry if I went over the deep end on that one. That's a trigger phrase I've run across too many times that normally equals "flaunting it." Again, sorry for jumping the gun.