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Topic: RWAP question...Sticky stain! Ewww....

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Subject: RWAP question...Sticky stain! Ewww....
Date Posted: 9/12/2008 10:25 PM ET
Member Since: 8/13/2008
Posts: 13,147
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/30440842@N07/2852239524/

 

Please let me know if you think this stain is OK. Not only is it a stain, it's sticky. When I opened the book, pages at the bottom ripped. I marked it RWAP and emailed the sender about the stain. She seems to think that because she offered a deal in book bazaar, that the stain is fine. She doesn't want to be out three books just because one had a stain on the bottom of the pages. I don't agree! If it is on your shelf, it should be postable. Whether or not it is a deal should not matter. What do you guys think?

Date Posted: 9/12/2008 10:40 PM ET
Member Since: 1/10/2008
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My personal opinion -- if it was on her shelf and she didn't list it in the BB as an "unpostable freebie?"  That's not right. 

Date Posted: 9/12/2008 11:02 PM ET
Member Since: 7/24/2008
Posts: 550
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If its on your self it has to be postable I think...I would as for my credit back.

Subject: I hope I'm wrong here...
Date Posted: 9/12/2008 11:42 PM ET
Member Since: 6/4/2007
Posts: 2,941
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Unless you are told ahead of time that you're getting a free unpostable, there's no such thing as an OK stain.  However, if the book was free (regardless of whether you had picked it from his/her shelf, where it never should have been) there's not much recourse for you to take.  It's not right, it's not ok, the member should at the very least apologize considering you could have just as easily ordered that book for the credit and asked for others for free...but aside from apologizing, technically there's really nothing else you can get him/her to do.

Date Posted: 9/13/2008 6:13 AM ET
Member Since: 5/5/2008
Posts: 515
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Yuck!

This wasn't a free unpostable, right? Because if not, it shouldn't have been posted.

Date Posted: 9/13/2008 10:48 AM ET
Member Since: 8/13/2008
Posts: 13,147
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No. It was not a free unpostable. It was part of a normal deal in the bazaar.

Amy
Date Posted: 9/14/2008 1:20 AM ET
Member Since: 3/11/2008
Posts: 1,716
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If you have the option of marking this as RWAP (meaning you ordered it from her shelf as part of a deal) then it was supposed to be postable.

So yes, mark it RWAP.

Date Posted: 9/14/2008 11:14 AM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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I think James is right.  This was on a 3 for 1 deal, correct?  Was the book with the sticky spot the one you actually ordered and paid the credit for, or was it one of the bonus books?  Not that it makes a difference in terms of what's right.  If the book was on her shelf, it should have been in postable condition.  But technically, if it's not the book that you actually "ordered" and paid a credit for, and it's not on your transaction record, there's no recourse for you to take if it's damaged.

Date Posted: 9/14/2008 11:20 AM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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Last Edited on: 6/9/10 3:41 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/14/2008 3:55 PM ET
Member Since: 8/13/2008
Posts: 13,147
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I asked for my credit back Cindy. She said that I am being unreasonable because now she will have sent 3 books for free. It's hard to feel bad for her considering the fact that she shouldn't have sent that book out to begin with. We wouldn't be in this position if she had examined her books a little closer. Though I really have no idea how you could miss a large stain like that.

Date Posted: 9/14/2008 6:55 PM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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Last Edited on: 6/9/10 3:41 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/14/2008 9:47 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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Cindy - "I don't agree with this. I think it's a loophole that'll allow bad traders to dump books into the system under a 'deal' in the bazaar and not feel accountable for the rip-off."

Is there some recourse for it?  Going strictly by the PBS rules, what is it?   If the actual requested book doesn't have a problem, is it technically an RWAP?  I'm not sure that it is, and I'd love to see the site owner's take on this situation.  From the sender's response, I'd imagine she'll contest the RWAP and refuse to refund the credit regardless.   I'm not saying what she did was right - the damaged book clearly shouldn't have been posted - but it's a little hard to get around the fact that if the damaged book is not the one on the transaction record, then technically it's incorrect to mark it RWAP.  I think she should send a replacement gratis.  That's what I'd do anyway.  But if I was in the receiver's shoes, no matter how aggravated I was, I wouldn't mark a book RWAP - damaged by the sender, if it wasn't the "for credit" book on record. 

Date Posted: 9/14/2008 10:59 PM ET
Member Since: 8/13/2008
Posts: 13,147
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Too late. It's already marked RWAP.

Date Posted: 9/14/2008 11:12 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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I'd be interested in hearing how this comes out, Colleen.  Like if the sender doesn't return the credit, I'm curious to see if you get it back.  Please do post a follow up.

Date Posted: 9/14/2008 11:50 PM ET
Member Since: 5/18/2007
Posts: 13,205
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We had this discussion awhile ago and the general feeling (backed up by TG's and PBS, I think) was that all books must be postable for the transaction to be considered a good one - it's not just based on the book ordered. It is perfectly acceptable to mark it received with a problem if one of the deal books is damaged by sender - the reason being is that ALL books sent came from the bookshelf where ALL books are supposed to be posted per PBS rules. In the space where you can give PBS some additional information, let them know it was part of a deal but not the specific book ordered, which books and what was wrong with it and reiterate that all the books  came from the person's shelf.

I'm quite surprised that the TG above says there is no recourse (via RWAP) and it's based on the book that is ordered and not the whole transaction. That is simply not true.

There is no 100% recourse whether it is a deal or not. PBS will not usually get involved (unless it gets out of control) and PBS will not return the credit if the sender refuses to do so. You're kind of at the mercy of the sender for the credit period, which is why it's so important to mark the TRANSACTION (deal or no deal)  RWAP because that's how PBS keeps track of habituals that abuse the system. There are records of you doing the deal - either in the forum or PM's. Those are all saved and archived somewhere - in fact, you can pull them up too.

So please, for the sake of everyone who uses the BB mark the deals RWAP if even one book doesn't meet PBS conditions. It's up to you whether you ask for the credit back or not.



Last Edited on: 9/14/08 11:53 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/15/2008 1:09 AM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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I think I'd rather message my TG or ask someone on Live Help before I did that myself.  Marking it RWAP doesn't get your credit back.  It's just a way of getting bad transactions on record.  BB deals are private arrangements between members and not actual recorded transactions, so I'd get some advice from somebody who either knows this beyond any doubt, or has instant access to someone who does, before I filed a report that isn't factual in the strictest sense of the word.  Again, you're marking a specific book as damaged by the sender when technically it's not.  The report goes on your record the same as it goes on the sender's record, so I'd be real sure I wasn't filing an erroneous complaint before I did it.



Last Edited on: 9/15/08 1:11 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/15/2008 1:35 AM ET
Member Since: 5/18/2007
Posts: 13,205
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It's just a way of getting bad transactions on record.  BB deals are private arrangements between members

A deal that includes an unpostable book from a shelf is a bad transaction. And since there is a forum for deals and the deals are posted and arranged for on this forum, which is sanctioned by PBS,  it is not a private arrangement, per se. A private arrangement is one that takes place strictly via PMs or e-mails and does not include the whole of PBS to witness, watch and read on a forum.

And it should go on the sender's record. The sender sent a book  as part of a deal that was not postable. That chosen book came from the bookshelf, which IS supposed to be postable. This is also why you include an explanation to PBS when you mark it RWAP where you state the name of the problem book, the deal involved, etc ...

Yes, please mark the transaction as RWAP so that the PBS team knows which members are ripping many of us off in the BB. This is their only way to keep track and that is marking it RWAP so the system has a record. If you don't want to that's fine but, as per another thread we had on here awhile ago, this is what should be done if you want the incident recorded and for habituals to be caught. Otherwise, they'll keep doing it. 

I'll also repeat, whether you ask for your credit back is your own decision - you can mark it RWAP without asking for a credit back. They're not mutually exclusive. In a deal, I will mark RWAP but I do not ask for my credit back.  

 

 



Last Edited on: 9/15/08 1:48 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/15/2008 3:58 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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And since there is a forum for deals and the deals are posted and arranged for on this forum, which is sanctioned by PBS,  it is not a private arrangement, per se. A private arrangement is one that takes place strictly via PMs or e-mails and does not include the whole of PBS to witness, watch and read on a forum.

That seems contradictory to this from the help docs:

Book Bazaar

  • This is the place to advertise your bookshelf and "make a deal"
    • Members often post "deals" or "bargains" in the Book Bazaar, hoping to clean out their bookshelves and earn some credits.   We do not officially support such deals (there is no credit compensation for unsatisfactory or unfulfilled swaps).

 

Again, I'd check with a Tour Guide before filing an erroneous complaint.  Just my opinion.

This is also why you include an explanation to PBS when you mark it RWAP where you state the name of the problem book, the deal involved, etc ...

The name of the problem book is automatically logged when you report a book RWAP - IF you're reporting the for credit book on record.  If the book doesn't match that transaction, the report isn't meant to be used for it. 



Last Edited on: 9/15/08 4:10 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/15/2008 5:25 PM ET
Member Since: 8/18/2005
Posts: 7,977
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Last Edited on: 6/9/10 3:40 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 9/15/2008 5:37 PM ET
Member Since: 8/13/2008
Posts: 13,147
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I agree completely Cindy.

Date Posted: 9/15/2008 6:03 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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Well, no offense, but I don't agree.  You're advocating using the RWAP form in way other than it was intended to be used, and the reason you give for that is that it's justified by the fact that the person you're reporting had an unpostable book on their shelf.  My interpretation of the rules is very literal, and I still don't see the PBS powers that be advocating doing that anywhere.  If they say it's okay to misuse the form that way, that's fine by me - it's their form.  They can do that.  Until they do however, if you report a book as RWAP, the book you're reporting needs to be RWAP.  If PBS says "We do not officially support such deals (there is no credit compensation for unsatisfactory or unfulfilled swaps).", I interpret that to mean that if I use their system in any way that it was not set up to be used - even if they "allow" me to do it - I'm taking a risk with my credit, and if that swap or deal or whatever doesn't come out to my satisfaction, I have no official recourse.  RWAP - damaged by the sender,  is an official problem.  Personally, I'd love it if they'd provide me with some sort of procedure, but in the meantime, that doesn't mean that I have free reign to use RWAP forms any way I see fit because I feel justified in doing so.  It may very well be justified.  I don't necessarily even disagree with it in principle.  I'm simply saying that it is neither policy or established procedure, and it shouldn't be portrayed as such.  I think anyone who does it should be real clear on that beforehand.  It seems to me that prior to doing this, an assumption is very likely being made that the sender who did this was doing it on purpose or running some sort of racket, and unless they specifically say they were, I don't think it's safe to assume that.  They could have simply made a mistake and overlooked something that made the book unpostable  - as glaringly obvious as it might seem to be - and they don't feel they owe the receiver a credit or even a replacement book.  Right or wrong, according to the rules, they can do that.   I think PBS makes it clear by saying that there is no credit compensation and that they don't officially support deals exactly what their position is on possible problems with them.  If you use the system in a way other than it was designed to be used, you pay your money and take your chances:P

Date Posted: 9/16/2008 5:11 PM ET
Member Since: 8/13/2008
Posts: 13,147
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I got my credit back. :P And I don't agree at all Kim. But hey. That's just my opinion.

Date Posted: 9/16/2008 6:05 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2007
Posts: 4,058
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From the sender?  And don't worry about it, Colleen:)  It's an interesting discussion, and I absolutely don't mind being disagreed with.

Amy
Date Posted: 9/16/2008 6:18 PM ET
Member Since: 3/11/2008
Posts: 1,716
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I'm with Kim on this one. I would only mark RWAP if the book I actually ordered was RWAP, not a book within the swap, even if it's considered the same transaction.

To elaborate on why I feel this way - on the BB a while back I offered a 5 for 2 deal on the Winkle in Time series I owned. Three of the books were unpostable, but 2 were sitting on my shelf free to be ordered. I offered this deal in BB so someone could take the series in one fell swoop and someone did.

In addition to this deal, they also wanted a number of other books on my shelf for a deal, as well (I think it was something like 10 for 5? not completely sure).

In total, they ordered 7 books from me and received 16, two of which were unpostable but mentioned before hand.

Now, if this person had wanted to be sneaky (not saying that they were, this is hypothetically speaking, the actual transaction went great!) he/she could have marked one or two of the books as RWAP because of the unpostables. While I would have the PMs to back me up in this situation to TPTB, this still would have appeared on my record.

Glad you got your credit back, though!

Subject: The site is governed not by opinions but by rules...
Date Posted: 9/16/2008 6:19 PM ET
Member Since: 6/4/2007
Posts: 2,941
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As supported by the line from the Book Bazaar, Kim's stance is actually the correct one.  It's stated pretty plainly: This is the place to advertise your bookshelf and "make a deal"

  • Members often post "deals" or "bargains" in the Book Bazaar, hoping to clean out their bookshelves and earn some credits.   We do not officially support such deals (there is no credit compensation for unsatisfactory or unfulfilled swaps).

  I understand the disagreement, but unfortunately Kim is still correct.  Maybe it does seem like a loophole, and I'm sure it seems unfair, but it's still the official stance, whether you agree or not.  There is technically no recourse.  You were not correct in marking the book you ordered with your credit RWAP unless there was a problem with that book and that book alone.  The Sender was not required by any rule of PBS to refund your credit.  It's nice that you got your credit, and hopefully the Sender will rethink posting damaged books, but the truth still remains, as Kim has explained, and regardless of your opinion, that the rules are not on your side.  I'm not saying people should be allowed to post damaged books, nor should they be able to offer damaged books as freebies without indicating condition beforehand.  I'm not saying that I think what happened to you was right at all, but unfortunately that's just the risk you take when engaging in deals (as stated plainly in the Book Bazaar rules).  There are plenty of rules in place to protect everyone involved in PBS transactions, just not the particular rules you wish would cover this situation.  As I said in the first place, there is no recourse provided by the rules or guidelines.  Whether or not there should be such rules might be a matter of opinion; whether or not there are such rules is not. 

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