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Topic: What exactly is a cleaved spine?

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Subject: What exactly is a cleaved spine?
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 4:56 PM ET
Member Since: 6/10/2007
Posts: 65
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Last Edited on: 2/8/16 8:20 PM ET - Total times edited: 2
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 4:57 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2005
Posts: 20,024
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Your link just takes me to your image hosting site. There should be a link near the pic that says direct link or url. Try that to see if it works.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 4:58 PM ET
Member Since: 6/10/2007
Posts: 65
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Last Edited on: 2/8/16 8:20 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 4:59 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2005
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Yeah thats cleaved. Just barely though but its unpostable.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:08 PM ET
Member Since: 6/10/2007
Posts: 65
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Last Edited on: 2/8/16 8:20 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:12 PM ET
Member Since: 2/17/2006
Posts: 468
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I received Hot Six by Janet Evanovich with several others in the series and didn't find out until I started reading it that it is almost cleaved. It will probably be cleaved after two more readings. I will probably offer it as a freebie to someone who is reading the series.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:14 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2005
Posts: 20,024
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Mark it recieved with a problem damaged by sender so that if there is a pattern R&R can see it. If you feel you dont need your credit back then just offer it as a freebie in the book bazaar.

You might also want to send a pm to the member, they may not realize that cleaved spines are not postable. Cleaved isnt the terminology used in the HC anymore though. From the HC: Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book



Last Edited on: 10/10/07 5:16 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:28 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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Well, the PBS guidelines only state that the binding:

Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book

The term cleaving is no longer used. To me, it looks like the binding is still intact, even if it's on its last legs.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:33 PM ET
Member Since: 8/9/2005
Posts: 20,024
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Actually no you can see small seperations there. Even a small seperation is a seperation and not postable.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:36 PM ET
Member Since: 1/31/2006
Posts: 1,402
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That's part of what I dislike about the term cleaved.  A cleaved PB and a cleaved HB aren't really the same thing.  In that pic, everything appears (to me) to still be intact as the pages are still fully sewn into the book.  The 'binding' is still holding the pages securely in the book.  To me, (again, emphasis on me) the book is still intact and postable.  If the book were a PB, then it would be just shy of falling apart.  Whooooole different situation then, IMO.

eta-I can't tell if the spine is visable in between the threads.  If it is, then yeah it's a seperation.  If not, then to me, (again emphasizing me) there isn't a seperation, just threads showing.



Last Edited on: 10/10/07 5:39 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:40 PM ET
Member Since: 1/31/2006
Posts: 1,402
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This would be why R&R stay out of these things and only intervene if there's a pattern.  Some of this stuff can be very subjective.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:47 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
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Without having the book in front of me, and just looking at that picture, it looks intact to me. It's a stitched binding, and it may be old, but it still looks intact. I've seen intact bindings similar to this one that had wrinkles in the pages along the binding that looked like that. 

Now, ultimately, it's Christina's call as to what to do, but I think I'd just accept that I'd be one of the last readers of that book and move on. I'd rather not report borderline cases and report books that are truly and definitively outside of PBS guidelines. This one looks too much like a judgement call to me. But that's my personal opinion. :)

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 5:57 PM ET
Member Since: 6/10/2007
Posts: 65
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Last Edited on: 2/8/16 8:20 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 6:03 PM ET
Member Since: 1/31/2006
Posts: 1,402
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Yeah, PB makes a biiiiig difference.  That makes it unpostable.  (I'm just skipping the whole cleaved term as those details aren't really important now.)  The rules state no seperation and if that is a photo of a PB then there is seperation then the book is unpostable. 

eta-What I use to determine spine condition is "if you can see the spine throught the pages-it isn't postable."



Last Edited on: 10/10/07 6:08 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 6:16 PM ET
Member Since: 6/10/2007
Posts: 65
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Last Edited on: 2/8/16 8:21 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
L. G. (L)
Date Posted: 10/10/2007 6:20 PM ET
Member Since: 9/5/2005
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It's cleaved - you can see the binding (stitching).

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 6:20 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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But I'm only seeing the stitching, not the spine. Even if it's a paperback, the stitching is visible, but I'm not seeing the spine behind the stitching in that pic. But that is still worse shape for a paperback than it would be for a hardback. (Shoot, I haven't seen stitching in a ppb for a long time.) Oh well. It's Christina's choice as to what to do.

Now, if that's the condition of a newer book, and it doesn't look like it's been abused, I'd consider asking for a replacement from the publisher. Based off your description, it sounds like the book's binding is failing far earlier than it should be.

Date Posted: 10/10/2007 11:47 PM ET
Member Since: 2/12/2007
Posts: 831
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For paperbacks that aren't too far gone, a cleaved spine can almost always be repaired.

For paperbacks, the glue used to glue the pages to the spine is a hot-melt glue.  If the type of damage discussed is in a paperback book, it can often be repaired by carefully using a household iron to reheat the glue. 

REPAIR procedure:   Use a heat setting just high enough to melt the glue, usually in the wool to cotton range, and a few seconds will heat the glue without damaging the cover unless it has been taped (such as a former library book).  Carefully place any loose pages in position and tightly hold the book together when heating.  You MUST put something between the book cover and the iron--the best is a teflon sheet, but a plain sheet of paper will often work.  (If you don't, you will melt the book cover coating or ink onto the iron --and that's a MESS!)  Hold the iron tightly against the spine for something like 10-30 seconds.  As soon as you see the glue ooze out the end of the spine, remove the iron.  If you hear a sizzling noise, remove the iron.   Hold the book in position until it cools.  It is best to do this repair before the cover on the spine is damaged by too much bending, but if it's already past that, what do you have to lose?

 

Date Posted: 10/11/2007 12:28 AM ET
Member Since: 1/15/2007
Posts: 1,410
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The Help Center says that books can open up to one page.  That pic looks like that's what the book does, but the binding is otherwise intact.  I think it's OK.

It would be really nice if R&R would see fit to post some pics, so we could stop revisiting this topic

 

Binding:
  • Must be intact, with no separation on the inside or outside of the book
  • If the book tends to open at a particular page, this is OKAY
  • Small amount of fraying or denting at top or bottom is OKAY
Date Posted: 10/11/2007 10:29 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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Linda: I tried that book repair method and it didn't work. The glue never melted.  I received a WL book that's got this issue and I'm afraid to post it when I'm done with it.  There is still a WL line.  Unfortunately I didn't notice until I had already marked it received.  Anyway I couldn't get the glue to soften. Is there an acceptable way to glue a book like this?

Date Posted: 10/11/2007 10:45 AM ET
Member Since: 1/31/2006
Posts: 1,402
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Mary- if there is still a WL line, just offer it free with an order.  They usually get picked up quickly.  Unless you are planning on keeping the book for a perm. collection, I wouldn't bother repairing it. 

If you do come across a book that you would like to repair for a perm. collection, this company, Brodart http://www.shopbrodart.com/default.us.aspx  sells excellent products.  I repair books (mainly HBs but some trade and mass-market PBs) and I use their products.

And a gentle general reminder (not directed at anyone in particular) - and please don't yell at me for saying this - but every book must reach it's final poster somewhere.  Yes, a book that doesn't meet posting guidelines should be reported.  That way R&R can see if it's a pattern of ignoring the rules.  But nowhere are any of us promised that all of the books we receive will be repostable. 



Last Edited on: 10/11/07 10:46 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 10/11/2007 11:33 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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Well I suppose that's what I'll have to do.  At least I don't have to worry about reading it in the tub or while eating.  It's already unpostable. It's a thick trade size paperback though.  Maybe I'll offer it as a freebie w/a 2 book order and see what happens.  Can't hurt to try.

Date Posted: 10/11/2007 12:20 PM ET
Member Since: 4/12/2007
Posts: 2,566
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I would love to see a link to a series of photos, some examples of postable, and some examples of unpostable.  For borderline cases, it can be subjective.  I've picked up lots of pbs at garage sales that look to be in excellent shape, only to get home and see a spot or two where I see a "line" between two pages.  Is that "line" the spine?  Hard to tell sometimes, but I don't post those books because they're borderline.  I've also received some like that, and don't know if they're worth making a fuss about, because they're so iffy.

Date Posted: 10/11/2007 12:33 PM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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That's how I feel about this WL book. It looks fine to me but someone else might think it's "cleaved".  I'm worried it might get worse with another shipping so I'm just going to post it as a freebie.  It's possible that it was fine when it was mailed and just had a rough ride on the way to me and now it's unpostable.  But pictures under the help section would be awesome. I bet it would prevent a lot of unpostable books from being posted. 

Date Posted: 10/11/2007 1:14 PM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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Mary, when I looked at the book, I thought "I would have posted that! The binding is still intact..." I was really shocked to see everyone saying that the binding wasn't acceptable. (Now, I can't see the book in person to tell whether the binding is severely weakened, or whether you can actually see through the binding. The picture is shadowy on that count. I might think differently if I had it in front of me.) But by that picture, IMHO, it's a postable book. If the OP had asked me for a return of the credit, I probably would have responded that the binding was intact, and that it was postable.

That's why I won't mark books RWAP if I get one that looks like it could be considered postable when reading the "bare bones" of the PBS guidelines. I want to report real and likely intentional violations of the rules (and I've seen many a pic that have shown covers falling off, bindings with big gaps in them, water-logged pages, etc.). I also want those who say, "Sure it was water damaged but it's still readable" reported. For me, those are the higher-priority items.

Meghan, you are right on the "end of life" argument. The issue here is whether the book arrived in postable condition. There is no guarantee that by the time you're done with it that it will still be in postable condition.

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