Discussion Forums - Questions about PaperBackSwap Questions about PaperBackSwap

Topic: what do you do when you have delivery confirmation but the receiver says th

Club rule - Please, if you cannot be courteous and respectful, do not post in this forum.
  Unlock Forum posting with Annual Membership.
Subject: what do you do when you have delivery confirmation but the receiver says th
Date Posted: 2/16/2011 9:40 AM ET
Member Since: 11/13/2008
Posts: 17
Back To Top

I had a book requested from and I shipped it promptly. I use paypal for my postage so it automatically gets delivery confirmation. The PO says it was delivered 1/22 so I was surprised when it was never logged as received and was classified as lost. I contacted the person who said it wasn't received. I gave them the tracking info and no response after 5 days. I contacted admins and was told "DC from outside PBS" isn't valid and proves nothing. I find that rather interesting, because I understand that when using PBS postage I get credit immediately. that said, the "proof" of delivery is the exact same proof from the exact same source as I got when I used paypal or if I had just asked for DSC at the postal counter. the PO says "it was delivered". whether they're telling me directly, or via paypal or PBS, it's the same source, yet somehow that source is trustworthy when using PBS but not trustworthy when dealing directly with the PO.  How ridiculous is that?

 

Let's turn this around. Let's say I used PBS and it says delivered and the receiver said it wasn't. What would PBS do for the receiver? Would they take my credit away and refund it to the receiver? I thought the whole point of delivery confirmation is to have proof of delivery, but it seems PBS's position is that it's meaningless? Really? I'm pretty sure this is a case of either someone else in the family opened it and didn't tell the member or maybe it fell behind the couch before being opened. That's not my problem. The Po delivered it. What happens once it's in your possession isn't my responsibility. I don't harbor any ill feelings towards the member, but at PBS for what is, IMHO a ridiculous policy. proof isn't proof apparently. I'm wondering if anyone else has had this happen (either as shipper or receiver) and how did it end up being resolved.

 

 

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 9:49 AM ET
Member Since: 2/13/2007
Posts: 8,411
Back To Top

It's proof that it was delivered somewhere, but not necessarily the right place.  If you are gonna use DC, you might as well use PBS DC because at least you'd get your credit when the book is scanned, and will get to keep the credit whether the book goes lost or is delivered.

What do you expect PBS to do?  It's ultimately a post office problem.  You could try to take it up with them, since you have proof that it was mailed and "delivered".

 

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 9:50 AM ET
Member Since: 2/13/2007
Posts: 8,411
Back To Top

From the Help Center:

If you sent the book with DC purchased elsewhere and it has been recorded as delivered by USPS but hasn't been marked received yet:

  • First, contact the requestor from the active transaction (in the Books I've Mailed tab in My Account), or from the "lost" transaction in your Transaction Archive if the book has been declared Lost in the Mail by PBS.
  • If the requestor does not respond to your PM within a few days, contact us and we will look into it.
  • We cannot grant credit for DC purchased outside PBS, but we can check if this requestor has become inactive.
  • If this requestor is inactive, your book should be marked received by the system.

If your book does not arrive by the 26th day (the 35th day if the sender or requestor is outside the contiguous US) after you marked it mailed, it will be declared Lost in the Mail at PBS.  This does not mean that the book is actually lost; it may simply be delayed en route.  You can read more about Lost books in A book I sent is lost in the mail!. 

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 9:54 AM ET
Member Since: 6/29/2007
Posts: 17,089
Back To Top

Hi William,

I understand that you are frustrated, but unfortunately Delivery Confirmation is confirmation that the item was delivered.  It doesn't necessarily mean it was delivered to the right place.  I had a book sent to me once that made it to my PO, but the clerk put it in someone else's box.  47 days later the person who accidentally "received" my book, dropped the opened package in the outgoing mail bin and it finally made it to me.  The person that sent the book used Paypal DC and it showed delivered, but I didn't get it for quite a while.

PBS Printed Postage and Delivery Confirmation gives the sender credit insurance.  No matter what happens to your package you will get your credit (for DC it does have to be scanned along the way).   The information for DC purchased elsewhere doesn't get imported into the PBS system.  PBS wants you to use their printed postage or delivery confirmation, not that purchased elsewhere.  Their only way to encourage this by not manually crediting people who use other postage providers.  PBS is in the business of making money and it doesn't behoove them to reward those that go outside the system.

 

Cathy A. (Cathy) - ,
Date Posted: 2/16/2011 10:03 AM ET
Member Since: 12/27/2005
Posts: 4,124
Back To Top

The only difference between using PBS DC and using USPS DC is that the sender gets a credit if the book is lost when he uses PBS DC. There is absolutely no difference for the recipient.

Delivery confirmation is proof that the package was delivered somewhere. It is not proof that it was delivered to the right person or the right address. I'm not aware of businesses that accept DC as proof of delivery. Whenever I've sent important paperwork, I've always been told by the recipient and the Post Office to use certified mail with signature confirmation because there is no other way to know it got to the right place.

Besides, what makes you think you're more believeable to PBS than the person who requested the book? All you have is a DC# that shows a book was delivered in the same city where the person who requested a book from you lives. Maybe you mistyped the address when you entered it into Paypal and your book was delivered to the wrong address because of your own error. PBS would have no way to check and they certainly wouldn't owe you a credit for that. Or maybe your brother lives in that city and you took the opportunity to send him something and now you're trying to scam a free credit without sending a book.

I don't have any reason to think that you did make a mistake on the address or that you're lying about having sent the book, but I also don't have any reason to believe that the other member is lying about having received it. To me and to PBS, you're two strangers who are both equally truthful. Unless one of you has a bad sending record or a bad receiving record, they have no reason to make a choice between the two of you.

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 10:08 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
Back To Top

I know from personal experience that a deliver scan doesn't mean it went to the right place.  One of the books lost enroute to me was scanned as delivered but it was not delivered to me.  Recently I had a Priority Mail box from something I ordered show scanned as delivered. After it didn't show up in my mail box for a few days, I called the post office they didn't know what happened to it.  I called again 3 more times. "oh yeah it's sitting right here". For 2 wks it sat at the post office (the wrong post office actually-one town over) and was scanned as delivered.   It happened around the same time, same wrong post office, different package. Until they called me one day and said "you know you have this package here".  (I had left my number in one of my earlier calls)

 

You get credit guarantee from PBS becuase the fee they collect covers the cost of the credit. To me the fee isn't worth it because it eventually outweighs any thing you might be out.  If I used it on every book I'd have spend a few hundred dollars just on DC fees. I'd rather spend that on books. 



Last Edited on: 2/16/11 10:10 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 2/16/2011 10:37 AM ET
Member Since: 11/13/2008
Posts: 17
Back To Top

can I have inadvertantly put the wrong address? sure. except I checked the online records and the address was correct. Could it be misdelivered by the PO? Of course. but the odds on that are well below 1%. Does anyone think it's more probable that it was misldelivered as opposed to them having put it in their car and forgotten it (as my wife has done DOZENS OF TIMES. she grabs mail as she walks out, puts it in the car and either forgets it or it gets lost under the front seat... pet peeve... grrr) or maybe it got placed on a counter and fell behind some furniture. That's far more likely folks.

If I had used PBS I would have gotten credit immediately and the recipient would've had a credit removed from their account immediately. If they don't mark it as received, then (assuming they really didn't receive it) they are out the credit but they have no book either. Now they're the loser. PBS won't refund their credit in this case, now will I lose my credit. (as far as I can tell. no one has stated otherwise and I cant find anything the rules that says that). And why is that? because PBS can say I shipped it and it was delivered. It's nonsensical to say DC helps me when I use PBS but it doesn't help me when I use it elsewhere. it's the same exact thing. I don't think PBS needs to give me anything, I think the transaction needs to be recorded as completed since I have proof of delivery. Is it foolproof? Of course not, but you can't live life like that. A system which is 99% accurate should not be invalidated because it's not 100% because unless you're using jesus Christ postal service, you're not going to be perfect. Nothing is. Besides, I could use PBS and then not ship it at all but I have my credit. Submitting a postage request and printing postage doesn't prove I actually shipped it. Only the PO can verify it hit the mail, so whats to stop me from doing that to game credits out of people?

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 10:47 AM ET
Member Since: 10/14/2010
Posts: 577
Back To Top

I know this has been frustrating, I do urge you to remember that it is only a credit and not something getting overly upset about.

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 11:08 AM ET
Member Since: 7/7/2007
Posts: 4,815
Back To Top

William, the reason that folks using PBS Postage get their credit regardless is because they have paid for the privilege.  Members pay a small additional fee when using PBS Postage which helps support the site and provides Credit Assurance, which is like a form of insurance for their books.  You didn't pay for the "insurance" and chose to use a different postage, so you should not expect the same benefits.

You do not have "proof of delivery" to the member in question (you don't have their signature saying they received the package) -- you have "proof of delivery" to ... somewhere.  Contact your post office and work with them. 

Also, I'm not sure where your stats are coming from, but misdelivered mail is more like 10%, not 1%, at the US Post Office, so it is not unlikely that your package may have been misdelivered.

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 11:11 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
Back To Top

The only reason DC helps you when you buy it through PBS is that the fee helps PBS pay for the credit refunds on the rare book that goes lost. 

And the PBS DC only gives you a credit if it's scanned at some point. So you can't just buy the DC from PBS mark it mailed and get a credit.  The credit only comes if the PO scans the DC.

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 11:42 AM ET
Member Since: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1,442
Back To Top

If I had used PBS I would have gotten credit immediately and the recipient would've had a credit removed from their account immediately. If they don't mark it as received, then (assuming they really didn't receive it) they are out the credit but they have no book either. Now they're the loser.

Not quite.  If a recipient does not mark a book as "Received", it will go lost and the recipient gets their credit back.  If the sender did not use PBS DC, they do not get any credit and lose out the postage they spent sending the book. If the sender did use PBS DC, they would have gotten a credit as well.

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 11:44 AM ET
Member Since: 1/12/2009
Posts: 4,412
Back To Top

William says "If I had used PBS I would have gotten credit immediately  [if you used PBS postage or once it was scanned for DC only]  and the recipient would've had a credit removed from their account immediately  [their credit was removed the second they ordered your book. It's kept in *escrow* until the transaction is complete].   If they don't mark it as received, then (assuming they really didn't receive it) they are out the credit  [no, if the book goes *lost* they receive their credit back]  but they have no book either. Now they're the loser.  [no, with PBS postage/DC, no one *loses* when/if a book goes *lost*]  PBS won't refund their credit in this case,  [yes, they will]  now will I lose my credit.  [no, you won't]  (as far as I can tell. no one has stated otherwise and I cant find anything the rules that says that)." [see below]

From the Help Center: [I've highlighted the relevant bits]

A book sent to an active member at PBS will not earn credit until the requestor marks it received, unless PBS Delivery Confirmation is used to send the book.  

If you sent the book with Delivery Confirmation and it has been recorded as delivered by USPS but hasn't been marked received yet:

  • Remember that the book could have been scanned as "delivered" at the local PO, before it went to the requestor's mailbox--the actual delivery can be a few days later  Also, the book could have been misdelivered.
  • You should FIRST contact the requestor using the button on the transaction on the Books I've Mailed tab in My Account when a few days have passed after delivery.
  • If the requestor does not respond to your PM within a week, and has not marked the book received by a week after the delivery scan, contact us.  We will look into it.
  • If you used DC purchased through PBS, or PBS Printed Postage, you will already have gotten your credit for sending the book.

For the Receiver:

A book I requested is lost in the mail. What now?

If a book you requested does not arrive by the 26th day (the 35th day if the sender or requestor is outside the contiguous US) after it was marked mailed, it will be declared lost in the mail at PBS. The requestor does not mark the book Lost; the system does this. 

The requestor will get credit back...

 



Last Edited on: 2/16/11 11:53 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 2/16/2011 12:27 PM ET
Member Since: 1/20/2009
Posts: 2,680
Back To Top

As others have said: The PBS DC and PBS Postage are a bit like insurance. If you use them, you pay a little bit of an extra fee. This extra fee pays for any extra credits PBS has to give out due to lost books, since credits aren't free and cost the site money to give out. Just like in anything else, if you don't 'buy' the 'insurance', you aren't covered by the protection it offers.

In cases where a book using PBS DC or Postage goes lost or gets misdelivered, both parties get a credit. The sender still gets credit for the book, but the receiver gets their credit back. This means that in such a case, PBS pays to give the sender their credit. That's where the extra fee for those services comes into play. The fees paid out on those services covers the cost of any extra credits they need to give out on these cases.

You can't expect to receive the same benefit when you didn't pay for the protection. PBS does let you do all the important aspects at no extra cost (you truly can swap books for just the cost of shipping), but if you choose not to pay for the extra protections that are offered, they cannot and will not cover you if a book goes lost or is misdelivered. You need to remember that PBS credits have a set real-world monetary value, and are therefore required by the IRS to be fully covered by PBS with either a book or cash. This applies to each and every credit in the system. So, someone at PBS can't just be like "Oh, okay, he mailed it, even if it was misdelivered" and press a button and issue you a credit. No extra credit was paid for, and therefore one cannot be issued.

And yes, the misdelivery rate for US mail is MUCH higher than 1%. Are you honestly going to try to claim you've NEVER gotten someone else's mail delivered to you? The receiver says they never got the book. Therefore, they're taken at their word. You can't say "Oh, they got the book and just lost it somehow, give me their credit." Is it possible? Yes, of course. But, it's only one possibility. You chose not to use PBS DC or Postage. Therefore, you chose to take the risk that the book may go lost or get misdelivered, and you would lose out on the credit. It's all spelled out in the rules.

Date Posted: 2/16/2011 10:54 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,171
Back To Top

Nice advice ladies  yes  I've nothing worthwhile to add.

I will say tho, I use PBS DC only and take it to the post office for postage.  Since DC is scanned as part of the transaction, my credit is transfered quickly (usually within 12 hours).  Other members may not be in a position to visit their post office as often, but this works for me!

Date Posted: 2/17/2011 7:29 PM ET
Member Since: 11/6/2008
Posts: 627
Back To Top

unfortuantly i agree with the others... dc just means it was delivered.. i have had a couple of books that had dc say they were delivered i never got them.. now i dont know if thye werent delievered to me or if someone took them off my porchj or what.. but point is im NOT gonna mark a book recieved that i didnt recieve.. if you want to have complete proof use either pbs dc or use whatever it is that they have to sign for it.. that way you know the right person got the book.. after that idk what to tell you.. i am sorry about your bad luck though because that sucks big time.. ive had lost books also but its just a credit.. i know if im not using pbsdc which i dont that i will lose a credit everytime i send a book i choose to send that way it works fine for me.. in 2 yrs ive lost maybe 3 books in the mail to someone.

Date Posted: 2/18/2011 12:09 AM ET
Member Since: 7/2/2010
Posts: 868
Back To Top

My other question is, did the recipient ever respond? I've read through most of the posts, although not all of them, and didn't see where the requestor responded.  If this is the case, make sure that TPTB know.  If the account is inactive, you may be able to get your credit back. Or so I've heard. 

Date Posted: 2/18/2011 12:33 AM ET
Member Since: 7/19/2008
Posts: 15,398
Back To Top

I put my mail on hold last month when I was traveling.  My mail with DC was scanned as delivered.  But it was not yet at my house.  It was in a box in the back room of the post office.  The Post Office counted that as delivered.

Date Posted: 2/18/2011 8:36 AM ET
Member Since: 11/22/2010
Posts: 107
Back To Top

I hate it when they just dont pick it up at the post office , I have 2 books right now having that problem and the people do not respond to PMs

Date Posted: 2/18/2011 12:19 PM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,186
Back To Top

 I contacted admins and was told "DC from outside PBS" isn't valid and proves nothing. I am thinking this is not the exact wording you received? They would say that a delivery scan just says it was delivered somewhere, it doesn't really say it was delivered correctly. The DC is most definitely valid for USPS purposes, but it doesn't qualify for the Credit Assurance on PBS, which is what I think they were saying. PBS DC isn't more believed or more valid, but it is credit assured because the fee you pay to get it covers that assurance. A free site certainly can't cover the cost of giving the sender a credit when the receiver says they haven't received what they ordered. Its simply a process of finances, pay for the assurance and get it, don't pay for it and risk not getting the credit.

I've had a package from eBay scanned as delivered when it was put in a neighbor's box. I was furious when I found out that I would not be able to get a refund because eBay considered it delivered on a USPS scan even though I didn't have what I'd paid for. Luckily the neighbor pt my package in my box late that night but I decided I wasn't going to deal with sites that assume I get something based on the USPS's scans.

Subject: I bought the PBS confirmation but the postal clerk couldn't figure it out..
Date Posted: 2/18/2011 6:38 PM ET
Member Since: 12/4/2009
Posts: 8
Back To Top

I bought the PBS confirmation but the postal clerk couldn't figure it out and before I knew what he was doing he plastered the USPS confirmation on top of the PBS confirmation. The USPS  confirmation has the book being delivered, but the requestor will not mark the book recieved or respond to my PM's. So I bought the PBS delivery confirmation AND USPS confirmation and will probably still be out the money for the book and shipping :( 

Date Posted: 2/18/2011 7:36 PM ET
Member Since: 8/26/2006
Posts: 9,327
Back To Top

Tiffany, since you bought PBS delivery confirmation, and since the requestor isn't responding to your PMs, you have a pretty good case.  If it isn't marked received, but goes "lost", go down to the bottom right corner of any page here, and under "company" click on "contact us."  Use the Feedback option to explain what happened, and that you haven't received a response to your PMs.

 

Date Posted: 2/18/2011 11:55 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,171
Back To Top

Bummer Tiffany, those under-trained USPS clerks can be soooooo annoying.  Hope your book issue gets resolved.

Date Posted: 2/22/2011 6:08 PM ET
Member Since: 11/28/2010
Posts: 754
Back To Top

I just received a package today in the mail (Non-PBS related.)  It has USPS delivery confirmation on it.  It is not my name and it's not my address.  But some person (either the sender or recipient) may be looking and saw that it was "delivered", according to the DC.  How timely!!



Last Edited on: 2/22/11 6:09 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 2/23/2011 5:16 PM ET
Member Since: 8/10/2005
Posts: 4,599
Back To Top

Mindy, I've had that happen before too, with non-PBS packages. I had ordered something, it was sent and scanned delivered. I never got it, never got it...called the company and they didn't even want to deal with me because "We put DC on it and it says you got it!" and acted like I was trying to scam them. I found out two weeks later that the box was delivered--to my neighbor, who was on vacation in Europe. The stupid substitute mailman left it on their porch--even though they had *their* mail on hold and their name didn't resemble mine in any way! Grrrrrrr. I finally got what I ordered (when the neighbor returned) but I think way too many people--shippers, especially--rely on the DC as 'gospel truth' that the person it was sent to has it. Not so!

Cheryl