Naomi B. (tripleguess) reviewed Where Have All the Good Men Gone?: Why So Many Christian Women Are Remaining Single on + 48 more book reviews
Helpful Score: 1
I'm not completely sure what I think of this book. I'll have to mull on it some more.
A couple points I found relieving and validating:
*It IS difficult to meet other singles in a relationship-conducive setting. This is cultural; I'm not a freak.
*There are many, MANY singles out there who want to get married but have been unable to do so. This is cultural; I'm not a freak.
I didn't know there were other "me"s out there. Finding out that there are, is a relief; it absolves some floating guilt I had about perhaps being too cynical, too unavailable, or just plain too old once I did figure out what was wrong. It's a relief to hear a researcher explain that I, and many many other singles like me, are fighting against the current when we hope for marriage. It's not that there is something terribly wrong with me.
Before, all I had to go on was my own experience, which relationally speaking was mostly negative. Keep in mind that I grew up in church and have been in church (though different churhces, since we moved a lot) all my life.
My parents grew up in church too. But I don't remember ever being given dating guidelines. Nothing about how to meet a guy or what to do with him once I did. No boundary setting. Every time a kid hit puberty, it seemed to catch adults by surprise, and so often they were completely unprepared when their now sexually mature child started attracting members of the opposite sex. It was easy for the poor kid to feel this as "blame." I guess the previous generation didn't have to struggle so much when they were younger... according to this book, they didn't.
Myself, I fell into an ill-fated "friendship" of sorts that gradually became inappropriate and verbally abusive and more and more soul-killing. This other person, mind, attended church. Some of the verbal abuse happened around church people who were older, who could have (had they known how) stepped in, taken me aside, and said "This is not how a relationship ought to be." Nobody did. Some of these adults, also regular church attenders, were too busy exploiting my parents to care about me and my siblings. Others were too busy sacrificing their children to college and ferrying them to soccer practice to take notice of anyone else. And some of the pastors were too busy telling us from the pulpit that we "ought to feel taken advantage of" because that way we would know we were genuine Christians; after all, if we distanced ourselves from people who mistreated us, eventually we would have no friends.
It's hard to combat teaching that sounds so spiritual, even if it does result in untold pain and disaster. The one wise grandmotherly woman who, I feel, might have said something if she had realized what was going on -- well, she died. I can't blame her for that.
I have also experienced what the book describes in that, while out and about, I do get male attention. I'm pretty sure I could get a date if I hung out at the right places. Of course, the guy would probably have 85% selfish motives, but it's refreshing to be noticed. At church, though, it's the opposite; I'm invisible. I crossed off the college group guys after learning that their catch-all phrase is "Uh" and that some of them are extremely fond of telling women what to do. Asking me out, they are not -- and I do take care of my appearance, so it's not that.
Another disturbing phenomenon that I and my sister have experienced time and again is men thirty years our senior -- in church -- who insist on asking us for dates or on touching us. Yes, touching. More disturbing still is that the other church men don't seem to notice; instead, my younger brother had to intercede and make these leches back off. I believe these older weirdos troll through churches because they know they can find naive young women who have been taught that they ought to feel taken advantage of and should not resist.
Anyway, back to the culture; there aren't really any venues for young people to meet. This despite that I live in one of the most densely populated regions of the USA. The singles group is, from all appearances, a place to prunify. There are no dances. There are church picnics and such, but people stick almost religiously to other people they already know, preferably those with college degrees or an interest in football. It's not as much of a "mixer" as one might think. I know these are just some churches. Perhaps they aren't all like that. But after this many decades, I think I'm entitled to an opinion...
One guy who did show interest was so aggressive that he suffocated me into ducking out. Another used the M-word, but I eventually realized that he was interested only so long as it cost him nothing; in the meantime, he wanted to "camp" til he found someone better. I finally wised up and stopped talking to him, thanks to a different man who showed interest just long enough to make me realize that I didn't want a passive "friendship" hogging my life.
Some of the most useful guidance I finally stumbled onto was "All the Rules" by Fein and Schneider -- a book I can only describe as secular. Oh that someone had handed it to me for my 15th birthday. The mistakes I could have avoided.
I'd like to point out, too, that I had acquaintances who had different standards -- and they got married. One accepted a man who been keeping her AND another girl in the fire until whoever was most... aggressive?... complaint?... won. Did she get married? Yes. Did I get married? No. Do I think she made a bad decision? Absolutely. Another young man shipped in a foreign girl to marry; she wasn't even claiming to be a Christian, but that didn't seem to bother anyone, least of all him, aside from one silly old lady who thought Christians ought to marry Christians. Did he get married? Yes. Do I think he did the right thing? No, I don't.
These are all church goers. No, I don't think they were more than nominal Christians, but their actions didn't cause much of a ripple in the church... and yes, I have seen churchgoing couples living together before they got married, and everyone around them smoothing things out and excusing it away for them. The underlying message was that my standards were just too harsh and I was being judgemental. I believe there were other people opposed to what happened, but speaking out was not encouraged.
Anyway, I appreciate what this author mentioned about our desire for marriage and our desire to follow God being set (according to what certain church people say) on collision courses, as though they were diametrically opposed to one another, and that one can't help feeling that "the gift of singleness" is the runner-up prize nobody wants. Repeating over and over that "It's a GIFT, dangnabbit!" fails to make it sought after!
Overall, I'd have to say this was a positive read for me, relevant and interesting.
EDIT: I'd like to qualify the above by clarifying that I have had many positive experiences in church, and I've met some wonderfully kind, wise, and accepting people. Also, at its core, church is supposed to be about a relationship with Jesus AND His people... though people disappoint, that does not nullify the purpose of being part of a church. I don't want to sound too bitter, like nothing good ever came to me through church -- that's not true, a LOT of good has. Just no viable dating relationships and little solid dating advice. ;D
A couple points I found relieving and validating:
*It IS difficult to meet other singles in a relationship-conducive setting. This is cultural; I'm not a freak.
*There are many, MANY singles out there who want to get married but have been unable to do so. This is cultural; I'm not a freak.
I didn't know there were other "me"s out there. Finding out that there are, is a relief; it absolves some floating guilt I had about perhaps being too cynical, too unavailable, or just plain too old once I did figure out what was wrong. It's a relief to hear a researcher explain that I, and many many other singles like me, are fighting against the current when we hope for marriage. It's not that there is something terribly wrong with me.
Before, all I had to go on was my own experience, which relationally speaking was mostly negative. Keep in mind that I grew up in church and have been in church (though different churhces, since we moved a lot) all my life.
My parents grew up in church too. But I don't remember ever being given dating guidelines. Nothing about how to meet a guy or what to do with him once I did. No boundary setting. Every time a kid hit puberty, it seemed to catch adults by surprise, and so often they were completely unprepared when their now sexually mature child started attracting members of the opposite sex. It was easy for the poor kid to feel this as "blame." I guess the previous generation didn't have to struggle so much when they were younger... according to this book, they didn't.
Myself, I fell into an ill-fated "friendship" of sorts that gradually became inappropriate and verbally abusive and more and more soul-killing. This other person, mind, attended church. Some of the verbal abuse happened around church people who were older, who could have (had they known how) stepped in, taken me aside, and said "This is not how a relationship ought to be." Nobody did. Some of these adults, also regular church attenders, were too busy exploiting my parents to care about me and my siblings. Others were too busy sacrificing their children to college and ferrying them to soccer practice to take notice of anyone else. And some of the pastors were too busy telling us from the pulpit that we "ought to feel taken advantage of" because that way we would know we were genuine Christians; after all, if we distanced ourselves from people who mistreated us, eventually we would have no friends.
It's hard to combat teaching that sounds so spiritual, even if it does result in untold pain and disaster. The one wise grandmotherly woman who, I feel, might have said something if she had realized what was going on -- well, she died. I can't blame her for that.
I have also experienced what the book describes in that, while out and about, I do get male attention. I'm pretty sure I could get a date if I hung out at the right places. Of course, the guy would probably have 85% selfish motives, but it's refreshing to be noticed. At church, though, it's the opposite; I'm invisible. I crossed off the college group guys after learning that their catch-all phrase is "Uh" and that some of them are extremely fond of telling women what to do. Asking me out, they are not -- and I do take care of my appearance, so it's not that.
Another disturbing phenomenon that I and my sister have experienced time and again is men thirty years our senior -- in church -- who insist on asking us for dates or on touching us. Yes, touching. More disturbing still is that the other church men don't seem to notice; instead, my younger brother had to intercede and make these leches back off. I believe these older weirdos troll through churches because they know they can find naive young women who have been taught that they ought to feel taken advantage of and should not resist.
Anyway, back to the culture; there aren't really any venues for young people to meet. This despite that I live in one of the most densely populated regions of the USA. The singles group is, from all appearances, a place to prunify. There are no dances. There are church picnics and such, but people stick almost religiously to other people they already know, preferably those with college degrees or an interest in football. It's not as much of a "mixer" as one might think. I know these are just some churches. Perhaps they aren't all like that. But after this many decades, I think I'm entitled to an opinion...
One guy who did show interest was so aggressive that he suffocated me into ducking out. Another used the M-word, but I eventually realized that he was interested only so long as it cost him nothing; in the meantime, he wanted to "camp" til he found someone better. I finally wised up and stopped talking to him, thanks to a different man who showed interest just long enough to make me realize that I didn't want a passive "friendship" hogging my life.
Some of the most useful guidance I finally stumbled onto was "All the Rules" by Fein and Schneider -- a book I can only describe as secular. Oh that someone had handed it to me for my 15th birthday. The mistakes I could have avoided.
I'd like to point out, too, that I had acquaintances who had different standards -- and they got married. One accepted a man who been keeping her AND another girl in the fire until whoever was most... aggressive?... complaint?... won. Did she get married? Yes. Did I get married? No. Do I think she made a bad decision? Absolutely. Another young man shipped in a foreign girl to marry; she wasn't even claiming to be a Christian, but that didn't seem to bother anyone, least of all him, aside from one silly old lady who thought Christians ought to marry Christians. Did he get married? Yes. Do I think he did the right thing? No, I don't.
These are all church goers. No, I don't think they were more than nominal Christians, but their actions didn't cause much of a ripple in the church... and yes, I have seen churchgoing couples living together before they got married, and everyone around them smoothing things out and excusing it away for them. The underlying message was that my standards were just too harsh and I was being judgemental. I believe there were other people opposed to what happened, but speaking out was not encouraged.
Anyway, I appreciate what this author mentioned about our desire for marriage and our desire to follow God being set (according to what certain church people say) on collision courses, as though they were diametrically opposed to one another, and that one can't help feeling that "the gift of singleness" is the runner-up prize nobody wants. Repeating over and over that "It's a GIFT, dangnabbit!" fails to make it sought after!
Overall, I'd have to say this was a positive read for me, relevant and interesting.
EDIT: I'd like to qualify the above by clarifying that I have had many positive experiences in church, and I've met some wonderfully kind, wise, and accepting people. Also, at its core, church is supposed to be about a relationship with Jesus AND His people... though people disappoint, that does not nullify the purpose of being part of a church. I don't want to sound too bitter, like nothing good ever came to me through church -- that's not true, a LOT of good has. Just no viable dating relationships and little solid dating advice. ;D
