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Topic: Writing the Wrong - Because "Member L" Won't. And How to Make Sure it Does

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Subject: Writing the Wrong - Because "Member L" Won't. And How to Make Sure it Does
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:22 AM ET
Member Since: 2/28/2007
Posts: 4
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Writing the Wrong - Because Member L Won't. And How to Make Sure it Doesn't Happen to You

 

I ordered a book from Member L. It was slow to arrive, and when it did, it was the wrong book. I'd orderd a book called The Language of Letting Go. Instead she sent me a book from 1978 called Total Forgiveness. It's true, I had to chuckle a bit at the irony.

Then I made my first mistake -- I marked the book "received but with a problem".  Dear PBS members, if you get the wrong book, don't ever, ever mark it as received. As far as PBS is concerned, the transaction is finished. Apparently, in my case, as far as Member L was concerned, it was a done deal too.

I made contact with L. She actually neglected to apologize at any point. She did suggest that I go ahead and keep the book she'd accidentally sent me, and that if I didn't want it I could re-post it to the system. She did not offer to refund my credit or pay my postage. She did not acknowledge that she had made a mistake.

Obviously, a big problem with that scenario is that no one in their right mind would request this old copy of Total Forgiveness. (As you can imagine, I wasn't feeling particularly forgiving. Maybe I should read the book....)

I explained to L that I didn't want to post her book, because even if someone did want it, which was incredibly unlikely, I'd still have to pay postage to send out this book. Or, as I explained, I'd already paid postage for all the books I had sent out which had earned me the credits I'd accumulated, one of which I'd used up to order The Language of Letting Go. I didn't want to pay postage to fix her mistake. She was not offering to send me postage. She was not offering to refund my credit. When I protested that no one would want the book, she suggested the person who had ordered it from her in the first place would probably want it. "Don't you think that's a little unfair to her," I asked? "You're suggesting that she should have to spend two credits on this book because you made a mistake?"  After that I never heard from L again.

I took it up with PBS, but essentially they said "aw, that's too bad".  There is no way to leave feedback for another member, and PBS doesn't care what we're sending out as long as they get their money for transactions and postage and delivery confirmation. Which makes me think: it's cheaper to send out a book than it is to buy a credit. So why don't we all just start mailing out our Anita Shreve collection in lieu of the Jonathan Miles and Barbara Kingsolver and Michael Pollan and Audrey Niffenegger that we'd "posted". 

I began looking into Member L, because as it turns out, I'm including this anecdote in an article about PBS that I"m writing for a national women's magazine. I had to laugh again when I saw the books she's got on her wish list. She's requesting four versions of The Book Thief, plus Emily Post's Etiquette.   This did make me smile. I'd like to suggest a few books she might add to her list, including Steal This Book and Crime and Punishment

So dear PBS members, please tell me what problems you've encountered with members who were unwilling to fix their mistakes and with a trading system that rewards poor behavior? How did you resolve the problem? And are there channels or other recourse that I am missing somewhere that would result in the return of my credit, since, after all, I got nothing for that credit?  I will be very grateful to read your thoughts and insights.

In the meantime, let me repeat main lesson learned: If you get the wrong book from PBS, never, ever mark it received. At least that way you'll get your credit back.



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 9:47 AM ET - Total times edited: 5
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:26 AM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2009
Posts: 2,016
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Becky, I understand that you are very frustrated. However, you might want to consider removing the identifying information about your trading partner. I would hate for your account to be in jeopardy as posting other people's information is frowned upon. Again, sorry to hear about your frustrations.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:27 AM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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Becky, it's against site rules to post another member's personal information on the forums. Please edit your post to remove the personal references.

It's quite OK to rant on the boards. It's NOT OK to post another person's name here.

Feedback to another member is pointless on this site. It operates on a first-in-first-out (FIFO) system. So if this person is next as far as sending a book, we will be ordering from him or her. There is feedback on Box-of-Books, where members swap directly with each other.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:37 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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People have been suspended and have had their entire post removed for naming names like that.  It's ok to vent but you have to leave names out of it. 

Sometimes people make mistakes.  It doesn't mean she in a bad person.  She should have refunded your credit. But from this posting I'm wondering if your 1st PM to her might have been rude. 

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:42 AM ET
Member Since: 7/23/2006
Posts: 15,930
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Like the above posters have asked, you should edit your post and remove the other member's information.

As for the issue at hand - I'm sorry you got the wrong book.  You're correct - you should not have marked the book received, since you didn't actually receive it.  I'm sorry you ended up with a book you don't feel anyone would want :( 

In most situations like this (where the sender has switched books), the sender can ask the other members to send the books to each other and offer them a credit to cover their postage.  Then when they receive their correct books, they mark them received.  If that doesn't happen, the two receivers just don't mark the book received and when it is marked "lost" by the system, they get their credit back.

 

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:44 AM ET
Member Since: 10/23/2005
Posts: 7,719
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A few questions for Becky:

In your article for this national magazine,will you include the fact that you have been a member here for over 2 years? Will you include the number of great trades you have made and how many books you have received during your membership here? Will you include that despite PBS's policy of not mediating individual swap disputes, that they "care" enough to maintain a site that has enabled thousands and thousands of sucessful swaps and thousands of satisfied members? Or will you skew the article to one transaction in which you werent satisfied? 

Since you havent taken the time to make a profile here at PBS, will you reveal your last name and city and state in the aritcle? Will you mention that you advocate breaking the rules here for  one credit and the opportunity to tell only your side of the story?

 



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 9:49 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:44 AM ET
Member Since: 2/28/2007
Posts: 4
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Mary L,

Actually, no, I've never been rude with her. In fact, in my first PM I simply told her about the problem and asked how she wanted to resolve it. apparently she didn't want to resolve it. One has to wonder -- I mean it's not a bad scheme, is it? It's a shame that this is possible through an otherwise solid book exchange like PBS, and it's hard to understand why PBS doesn't have an investment in the outcomes. The system almost encourages lawlessness, and that makes me sad. I had high hopes and have met some cool folks. I didn't realize though that when there's a problem, that's just too bad for me.

 

So is that the way it is with PBS then? If someone fails to fulfill their half of the deal, that's just too bad for you? Honestly? It's not really a very good model -- surely I'm missing something?

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:49 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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Becky - As everyone else has said, it really is in your own best interest to edit your post.  If members were permitted to post other members personal information, it could get really, really unpleasant on the boards.  TPTB don't often intercede in individual swaps because it's nearly impossible for anyone outside the situation to fairly judge what is going on.  I'm sorry you had trouble receiving (the rather ironically named under the circumstances) The Language of Letting Go, and the situation wasn't resolved to your liking.  But, as Mary said above, I do wonder from your post about the tone of your initial email when the mistake was made. 

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:51 AM ET
Member Since: 1/8/2007
Posts: 8,139
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People are allowed to make the occasional mistake. But a person who habitually makes bad trades will be suspended and his/her account closed. On the plus side, you marked RWAP, and you can PM the sender with a message that says, "I am requesting that you refund my credit for [transaction], because you sent me a different book than I had requested. If you do not refund my credit by [date, at least one week grace period], I shall mark this problem transaction 'Not Resolved.'"

An unresolved transaction would be a double-black mark on her record. Wait until the day after the deadline to mark not resolved. Then move on. It's not worth this kind of effort over one credit that costs less than a few dollars.



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 9:52 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 9:53 AM ET
Member Since: 2/28/2007
Posts: 4
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Rhonda,  so you're saying that because it was the wrong book it should not have been marked received? PBS's policy instructs us to mark them as received, regardless of the problem. In any event, I have not been put in contact with the other person, the one who wants the copy of the book I received (I halfway wonder if she exists, to be honest).  I told L that I would be happy to exchange the book with her, but I did ask that she cover the postage. I don't think that's unreasonable. I've paid a lot of postage toward the end of getting credits -- when I order a book from a member I don't expect to have to pay postage to receive it. But L refused, and then disappeared all together.

 

And Cheryl,  actually, yes, the overall slant of the magazine article is positive. Thus far PBS has been a good resource and, as I stated, I've met some great reading-minded people. But it's a major flaw in the system to allow unfulfilled transactions to be charged to the person who ordered the book, and there does need to be a feedback system so that members can opt not to oder from a particular member. I've had my share of problems too, and in each of them there was no support from PBS. Happily the other member was willing to resolve it in some way - I've never before had one to just end contact, no apology, no resolution of any sort.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:06 AM ET
Member Since: 8/30/2005
Posts: 827
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Becky, read I received a book I didn't request! in the Help Center. 

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:11 AM ET
Member Since: 1/30/2009
Posts: 5,696
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Rhonda,  so you're saying that because it was the wrong book it should not have been marked received?

Yes.  I know it's really counter-intuitive, but if you don't mark it received, and if the person does not remedy the situation, the book will eventuallly go lost and - presto!  Resolution.  The book you ordered was not received, and in most cases this is some sort of mix-up.

But it's a major flaw in the system to allow unfulfilled transactions to be charged to the person who ordered the book

Unfufilled transactions are not "charged" to the person ordering the book.  Problem transactions are dealt with by the system in place, rather than on a case to case basis.  If TPTB were to moderate each problem swap, I doubt they would have much time to do much else.  The current system allows you to mark transactions RWAP, and then if the sender does not resolve the issue to the receivers liking, they can mark it unresolved.  If a member accrues too many problem transactions, their account is in jeopardy.  It seems to me that if you have been a member here for a couple of years, and this is your first unresolved transaction, the system is working.  Unfortunately, if the system favored the receiver, anyone could simply state that their book is unacceptable, and get their credit back.  It seems to me that this would be much more prone to abuse than the system currently in place.  I'm not saying it's perfect, but it does work very well most of the time.  As others have said, in a place where FIFO is the rule, individual ratings don't really make sense.  How often do you see someone's profile before ordering a book?

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:17 AM ET
Member Since: 10/23/2005
Posts: 7,719
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Some of the things that I (please note only sharing my own perspective here)  take into consideration, are how long the member has been here, and if there may be other things going on that I have no idea of in their lives. I also look to see if they have a small shelf, and if all the books were posted at around the same time. They may be an inexperienced swapper here. I do not give new members a break about marking RWAP, but I do try to allow them enough rope to hang themselves.

I also try to put into perspective the over all wonderful experiences I have had as a result of my membership here.

I have been mad too, about a book I received that I had WL when the release was just a rumor. It came and was very badly damaged. I followed the protocol and marked RWAP, PMed the other member, and they blew me off, denying the damage and refusing to refund my credit. I was very emotionally involved with this for a day or two. When they didnt refund my credit after I PMed them again, I marked it Unresolved and, with an effort, let it go.  I gave the book to a friend of mine who was thrilled to have it.

But in the big picture, the structure of PBS programming is great. Post a book, it is added to the end of the line, wait til its your turn, get an order, mail the book. Wish for a book, the wish is added to the end of the line, when it is your turn, get an offer for the book, accept the book order..

A much better procedure than other swap sites I have heard about, fair and equitable. But with the FIFO comes the inability to leave feedback, since when ordering a book here, we are ordering books by ISBN from posted books. We are not ordering from other members, but ordering from PBS of books that are posted.

Most members are fabulous here, and all are human. Sometimes it helps me to give them the benefit of the doubt and as hard as it can be, for me to move on and let it go.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:22 AM ET
Member Since: 8/16/2007
Posts: 15,201
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First lesson learned is that people make mistakes, approach it politely and most will fix it.  If your PMs with the member were near as flippant and condescending as your post, I can see her bristling at dealing with you. Yes, that doesn't give her the go to not fix her mistake, but you know, that vinegar and honey theory, right? Was there a reason to state that no one who ever want to order her book that you got by mistake?

Second lesson learned is to read the Help Documents before marking a book received if there is a problem with it. Per the link Leise provided, if you receive a completely wrong book, you first contact the sender to try to staighten it out, you only mark the book received one you receive the one you ordered. That gives incentive for the sender to fix their mistake.

Sorry the member didn't make right by you. Its not the site's fault, they do sanction someone who repeatedly breaks the rules. Sounds like this sender made a mistake, if not she won't be a member long.  PBS cannot be involved in every little transaction, they do not have the staff nor can they just be handing out credits themselves.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:24 AM ET
Member Since: 8/23/2007
Posts: 26,510
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If they automatically took credits from someone when a book was marked RWP then there's be a whole lot of complaints because people sometimes mark perfectly postable books as RWAP.  Like when someone marked a book I sent RWP because they wanted an audio book and I sent them an hardcover. I posted a hardcover-it was listed as a hardcover and they only paid 1 credit. Should I have lost my credit automatically for that-um no. It would also encourage people to mark books with a problem for things like no dust jacket or just because they want to cheat the system.

People do get their accounts suspended when they get too many RWPs.  But people are humans and make mistakes.  There are just so many more things in the world to worry about. 

If you've been here for 2.5yrs and this is the 1st time you've had a transaction that you've felt the need to vent about then that's pretty darn good.   And go ahead vent away-just don't bash PBS for the rules that are written for anyone to see and that you agreed to when you joined. And don't put the other persons name in there.



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 10:25 AM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:38 AM ET
Member Since: 7/23/2006
Posts: 15,930
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First, thank you for editing your post!

And yes, the error here in the first place, I'm sorry to say, was yours by marking the book received :( 

And yes, the sender should be more willing to work things out with you - definitely true!  It could be that she's new and isn't sure what to do, or is upset about the situation and is choosing to ignore it.  Either way, there's a record of it, and PBS knows about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this:  The system almost encourages lawlessness,  The sender didn't necessarily break any laws!!  She made an obvious mistake.  There's absolutely nothing in it for her to deliberately send the wrong book to you.

As you also said, Happily the other member was willing to resolve it in some way - I've never before had one to just end contact, no apology, no resolution of any sort.   I also have had almost every singe problem transaction resolved with the other person.  That's why this system does work - the few and far between times that the other member ignores the rules, they do get noticed and most often will have their account suspended but the vast majority of the time, there really isn't a need to involve the PBS team since the members tend to work things out themselves :)  That's been my personal experience through my own trades as well as what I've seen as a tour guide.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 10:49 AM ET
Member Since: 2/5/2007
Posts: 30,800
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While she did mark the book wrong, the FIRST error was not hers.   The FIRST error was the person who sent the wrong book.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 11:19 AM ET
Member Since: 3/11/2008
Posts: 924
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I have received a few RWAP books (water damage, underlining, etc.) but in every case the sender returned my credit when I asked. It's a bummer that Member L didn't return your credit, but on the grand scheme of things, it's just one book. If this were something that happened all of the time to you, then I'd be worried about the integrity of the site, but it sounds like this is out-of-the-ordinary. And generally, I've found it's impossible to do any transactions in any venue (purchasing, selling, exchanging, etc.) without being burned sometime. It's the nature of human relations--there are always people out there who will not do the right thing.

I'd do as Jane suggested--send them one more PM requesting your credit back, explaining that if they take no action you will mark the transaction as "unresolved" (which you can do in your transaction archive). A pattern of unresolved transactions will result in that member being suspended. There's not really anything else you can do.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 11:51 AM ET
Member Since: 2/28/2007
Posts: 4
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Thank you all for your replies. Cheryl, in particular I appreciate your perspective. To all of you, please understand that I know people make mistakes. But geerally when we make a mistake there is some guiding principle inside us that inspires us to make it right. I do realize that not all of us come with that quality, but I did sort of expect that the member would be committed to making things right. So now I know. 

Also, in case it matters at this point, I didn't tell the member that no one would ever want to order her book -- I told you, because I was frustrated, and because it was the truth. I did point out to the member that her book is not one that is in demand, and also that there were many copies of the book aleady in the system -- valid points that were not flip or out of line. Bottom line is that I have no use for this book. It's not what I ordered, I have no way of getting rid of it, and even if I did I'd have to pay the postage. And I might even have been willing to do that if, off the bat, the member hadn't been unconcerned about her mistake and unapologetic. She bought instant credit though so I guess, in her mind, there was no reason to be concerned.

And so, as you all suggest in various ways, it's time to let it go. But I've learned several valuable lessons here, and at the very least I have to be grateful for that. It's also true that my magazine piece just got a bit more interesting -- there are certain things that readers need to understand before they sign up for PBS and start sending out books, and so perhaps this incident was timely in that regard.

I appreciate all the feedback, all the words of wisdom and all the shared experiences.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 12:14 PM ET
Member Since: 12/28/2006
Posts: 14,177
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Becky, you are wielding this magazine artlcle like a weapon.  PBS is a great site, and IMO works better than any of the compitition I've seen to date.  Not perfect, but what is?  If you can design a better option, you should go for it.



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 12:14 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 12:19 PM ET
Member Since: 4/30/2007
Posts: 2,728
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Sorry to hear that you experienced this- your frustration is very clear, and I think anyone would be frustrated with this kind of situation.  I am very lucky- I have been here almost as long as you have, I have received over 200 books, and while I have had a handful of problem transactions, I have never had anyone who refused to refund my credit when I have asked for it.  I believe that it matters a great deal how you word your PM to the senders of books that are RWAP, and the tone that comes through can make or break your success  in communicating with people.  It's hard to say without knowing the exact wording of your PMs, but judging by what you wrote of your communication with "Member L", the tone sounds rather argumentative, and carries an air of righteous indignation.  This can put people on the defensive immediately, and color their perception of every other communication that you have with them.  If I could make a suggestion- if this were to happen again, I would really recommend leaving any personal opinion, feelings, etc. out of your PM and stick to the facts.  Instead of making comments that have an accusatory tone (such as "I don't want to pay to fix your mistake", or "don't you think that's unfair"), it is better to state the facts, which are the rules of this site, backed up by quoting from the Help Center documents, and leave out anything that has the tone of personal judgement.  This is why I have standard RWAP wording- I don't have to think about it at all, and it leaves no question as to what the expectations are, as well as the results of not resolving the issue:

"Thank you for sending X book to me.  I am so sorry to have to mark this book RWAP, but (insert problem with the book).  Unfortunately, this means that the book does not meet PBS posting guidelines, and I will not be able to repost this book.  I would appreciate a refund of my credit for this book.  If you'd like me to send it back to you, I'd be happy to do so if you would like to cover postage with an additional credit.  Let me know if you would like to do that.  I would appreciate a response from you by X date, and will promptly mark the problem transaction as resolved upon the return of my original credit.  Thank you for understanding and your prompt response, and please PM me if you have any questions."

You would have to change the wording a bit for the wrong book received, but you get the idea.  For what it's worth, I did once receive the wrong book- the sender had accidentally switched my order with another order, but she was very apologetic and compensated each of us to send the books to each other.  Another time, I received a book I did not order, because the sender had accidentally printed my label twice and mailed me a book meant for someone else.  Again, very apologetic and compensated me for mailing the bookon to the correct person.  Then I had several  situations where I ordered a trade size book and was mailed a mass-market paperback instead, and this actually IS the situation in which you mark "Wrong book received".  In all cases, I got my credit back.  In all of my transactions, I have only had one, my very first RWAP (which had brown liquid stains all over the book) in which the sender made a very nasty reply and accused me of lying, but nevertheless did refund my credit.  That is where I learned that the wording of the PM really matters, that if you sound accusatory in your PM to the sender, they are not likely to resolve things amicably.  The best thing you can do is start off by not making assumptions, other than that the sender made a mistake, and more likely than not, it was an honest mistake.  Members who intentionally screw people by sending wrong or problem books are few and far between, and in time will be weeded out.

Again, I'm sorry to hear that you have had such a negative experience.  I hope it won't color your entire opinion of the site, because the majority of transactions are good, successful ones.  It is a shame that you now have a blemish on your experience with PBS, but try to remember that the good far outweighs the bad.  I know that it smarts to have marked the book incorrectly and now have to pay for it, but chalk it up to a learning experience.  Now, next time, you will know, and I would bet that others have learned something from this thread too.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 1:10 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,956
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Becky,

in the period between 5/2008 and 5/2009 there were 2,280,357 books traded. That works out to 43,853 books per week.

Now go to the forums and see how many people post in a given week about a bad transaction. Maybe 5 per week? Certainly less than 10.

Make sure you put this in your article too!

Also, I don't know how many books you have received in the 2 years that you have been a member ... but I'm guessing that the money you have saved is a lot more than the $3 you may have "wasted" by this bad transaction.

Yes, Its a shame that the other person doesn't want to rectify their mistake. However, in the overall scheme of things, there are very few such members at PBS and they are eventually suspended if they persist in their behavior.

How do you imagine that PBS could intervene in every bad transaction? Many transactions do not have a "right answer" ... There is only 2 people who ideally, are working under the assumption that the other member is telling their side in good faith. Most of the time, both memebrs can come to an amicable resolution. Sometimes, not. And members who aren't willing to work out solutions over time, do get suspended.

Most issues are he-said/she-said types of issues, where both members could honestly believe that they are correct. If you check a book before you mail it, is it still possible that you might miss a flaw in it? Yes, of course. If you missed it, does that mean another member is automatically lying if they see it? No. Is it possible that some members do lie about some books they receive? I guess it might be true. Is it possible that some members lie about books they sent? Again, could be true. Is it possible that a postable book can be mailed, and an unpostable one received? Yes, especially in the case of spine-crack issues, where a book with brittle glue might be dropped on the floor or knocked around during mailing in such a way as to cause the spine to separate during mailing.

The point is, that PBS is not perfect, but if I can get 99% of the books I order in perfectly good postable condition (and I DO!!!) then that is pretty darn close! And, good enough for me.



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 1:16 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
Subject: whoa! snarky responses
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 2:14 PM ET
Member Since: 10/10/2008
Posts: 63
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WOW!  Some people are really snarky in their replies...geez, I'd be afraid to order a book from them.

Do I need to start trolling the forums for snarky replies, keep a list, avoid ordering from the "nasty" bloggers?

The poster had a valid argument with the sender, yes, she made a mistake posting the name (which was edited).

Holy cow EASE UP snarky ones!

Janet M.

Date Posted: 8/13/2009 2:58 PM ET
Member Since: 1/10/2009
Posts: 332
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Thanks, Janet.
Date Posted: 8/13/2009 3:29 PM ET
Member Since: 1/17/2009
Posts: 9,956
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The OP asked for people to post their bad experieces with other traders. She does not explicitely say so, but one can infer, that it is to include them in the article that she is writing for a national magazine. She is asking for criticism of PBS.

Quote:

So dear PBS members, please tell me what problems you've encountered with members who were unwilling to fix their mistakes and with a trading system that rewards poor behavior?

I don't think my answer to her was snarky. I (and other members) are merely pointing out to the OP, that:

1. the trading system DOES NOT reward poor behavior, and
2. most people have far more positive transactions than negative transactions, and
3. If the OP had read the rules before marking the book recieved, she would have gotten her credit back in the first place, and so even she would not be thinking that the " trading system ...  rewards poor behavior"

Most members are happy with their PBS experience, notwithstanding the very occasional bad transaction, and probably don't want to offer encouragement for PBS bashing in a national article. Sorry!

Now, maybe the OP didn't intend for her post to sound that way ... but it sounded that way to me.



Last Edited on: 8/13/09 3:36 PM ET - Total times edited: 1
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